Re: Winds order

On Aug 10, 6:45 pm, mstanw...@xxxxxxx wrote:> On Aug 10, 7:10?pm, al
[snip]
Hello, Michael, this "variability feature" of game design is a new
aspect of discussion. So it does not matter how detailed a thread you
had given on previous topics. Test the idea before rejecting it. Try
exploring a little, instead of hanging onto history. For a game to be
relevant for all time and all places for all people, variability in
design is essential.

Hello Allan. A long reply, and...as far as I am concerned, my last
comment on your ideas, as I have said all I can on them. I have only
replied to this one because you have misrepresented my
(unintentionally I am sure) arguments. So I wish to correct any wrong
impression about them.

Now, from the above, the 'variability feature' is not a new topic of
discussion. It is one of the central planks upon which your ideas
about a theme, rest. I have been well aware of this when discussing
your theme ideas. You have alluded to this many times when you have
asserted that the suits symbols could mean whatever the theme required
them to be.

This is another assumption you have made. There is no evidence that
'variability' was the intent of a hypothetical maque game designer.

This feature of variability was present even in the card games
preceding the earliest maque evidence we have. Lo points out, as an
example, the three suited card pack that was used for various games
such as penghu and shihu.

[snip]
Dr. David H. Li called your "cash" as containers. He called your
"strings of cash" bushels. Was he wrong then? Of course not. His game
theme was related to an old agrarian society in China long ago.
I called the circles bird's nests because nests are round. I called
the sticks bamboo because they look elongated. Why? It was because I
associated the symbols with the sparrow. I was just as correct as you
when your theme was about "money" or David when his theme was about
"grain".

This is incorrect thinking in my view, Allan.

I think you have unintentionally given an example of a 'straw man'
fallacy. You are suggesting that both David Li's names and your names
for the suits were referenced from your respective themes for the
game. This is ok.

But next you suggest that I have a theme for the game which gives rise
to the money symbols for the suits. This is the 'straw man'. Since you
have themes and I have a theme then your ideas are the same as mine.
This is wrong. I do not have a theme for the game and the money
symbols are therefore not based on a theme.

I put forward an explanation of the suit symbols based on various
pieces of evidence drawn for what we know of similar games and their
suits that predated the earliest maque sets we know of. I am not going
to repeat the explanation/hypothesis here.

The difference is that I have described a hypothesis which contains
good reasons and evidence to substantiate its line of reasoning. I
have repeatedly asked for your similar evidence, but received none.

Think for moment, regardless of what others had said in history or had
not said in history, why do you think there are those symbols in the
game? What do you think the author had in mind? Nobody asked nor
answered this question. To come up with an answer we have to think
about it ourselves. History does not have evidence to show us. But no
evidence in the past does not mean no answer in the future.

True, but irrelevant. A claims provisional truth is established by the
amount of evidence in its favour. Where is the evidence for an author?
This is an unsubstantiated assertion. I have already given an
explanation with evidence and therefore good reasons, for the suits
symbols.

My hypothetical explanation is, as given in my article, the game was
intended to be a metaphor for the universe. The 3 basic suits are
symbols for all things of all shapes, size, big and small, living or
not. They are universal symbols. No one else ever made that statement
before (that I know), but that does not mean it is incorrect.

I am glad to see the word hypothetical. ^_^

Put it in another way, Culin, Wilkinson, Millington and others in the past
did not have all the answers to all questions.

True. But that does not allow any unsubstantiated explanation to be
ok, if it is put forward as being accurate but has no evidence to
support it.

Not quite true in what you said, Michael. I gave example what Dr. Li
called the symbols in his book "The Happy Game of Mah-Jong". That is
proof of my "variability concept" for the 3 suits. I can cite as many
different names as you want. The symbols differ from place to place.

Sure. But as I have said many, many times before, I was talking about
the derivation of the suit symbols. Not what they have become through
modification etc.

Further, all that suggests to me is that people are quite capable of
reading whatever they want to into various things. Whether they are
real meanings depends on the evidence put forward in their favour.
However, if they are not intended to be accurate interpretations of
the symbols but instead are whatever the person thinks they should be
then fine, I have no problem with that.

Every version of the game (i.e. every set with different tile
composition) has a theme which tells something. Heaven, Earth, Man and
Harmony are tiles in some sets and not others. You don't think there
was not a message in the difference? Of course we don't know what
exactly the message was, but that does not mean a different theme was
absent.

I have no explanation as to why they were present. I haven't looked
into it in very great detail. I have some speculative ideas but no
evidential support. There may have been a message and there may not
have been. All I am asking is that you confine your speculations to
the evidence or, failing any evidence, say that your proposals are
hypothetical - like you did above.

Do you recall the case of some one (Culin or Wilkinson) was asked what
he wanted to put on the tiles in MJ shop?
I don't know what designs and words he chose. Whatever choice he
picked he did it as personal expression, meaningful or not. His
design selection defined the theme of his own game. That to me is
ample evidence. I hope that illustrates what I mean by a theme as
well.

It was Culin. Also, the phrase you are talking about from his paper is
ambiguous. After considering it a great deal I think it was referring
to the so-called flowers/seasons, as additional groups that can be
added on to a basic set like Laufer's. This was not an observation
about making a whole set to reflect a theme.

On the contrary, it explain plainly to me why the game has two
distinct types of tiles: words and drawings. The words provide the
theme; different words give a different theme.

It tells you nothing. Without reference to reality via some form of
evidence, it doesn't say anything of relevance.

Furthermore, I can trace the words to its likely source, Poetry Pai
and I can also trace the circles to its likely source, Xian He Pai.

That is great. Can you give me dated references and materials so I can
see this for myself?
I remember it well, Michael. I maintained that you had a wrong
understanding of the word "wan".
I am satisfied now with my interpretation of it being a catch-all
category for things that are neither round nor long. Now all things in
the universe are included. My premise again is that the game is a
metaphor for the universe.

You maintained I had a wrong interpretation but you gave no evidential
support, after repeated requests by me, to show why it was wrong. I am
glad you are satisfied, but as I have also said, I am not. Show me the
evidence. Give good reasons to consider your ideas. Reasons and
evidence.

I have repeatedly asked in other posts for this line of reasoning but,
as far as I am concerned you have not provided any.

Allan, if you cannot provide a coherent argument supported by some
form of evidence, I will not be commenting further on this topic.

Cheers
Michael

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Symbols & Suits - matiao & mahjong (was Why a Sparrow?)
    ... The drawings on the faces of cards nor the ... So the game, Sparrow, has likely met with similar interventions. ... However, there is certain evidence ...
    (rec.games.mahjong)
  • Re: Winds order
    ... Hello, Michael, this "variability feature" of game design is a new ... What evidence do you need, ... intended to be a metaphor for the universe. ... supplied any direct evidential link of this idea with maque. ...
    (rec.games.mahjong)
  • Re: What is Maque/Mahjong?(was Winds Order)
    ... describing the characteristics of the game". ... cut date on which maque was created. ... new evidence then I am bound to modify or discard my ... But no one is asking you to give up your approach Cofa. ...
    (rec.games.mahjong)
  • Re: Numbers of tiles in the Himly and Glover sets.
    ... consider them the 'Four Cardinal Directions'? ... by your assumption that players could have changed these terms, ... evidence or reason for them being called Winds in the past. ... Do you mean you know how the game was played? ...
    (rec.games.mahjong)
  • Re: What is Maque/Mahjong?(was Winds Order)
    ... respect to the "origin" of the game, ... we rely and use intellectual evidence in addition to ... The 'idea behind the cards is essential because that is starting point ... What I showed is evidence (intellectual evidence) and it is part of my ...
    (rec.games.mahjong)