Re: Promoting Go in the USA


"-" <jazzerciser@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Chess isn't going away. Nor is it in the best interests of each
community to engage in game warfare. Each variety of game is
easy to play but difficult to win. One respects the players of any
cognitive-skill boardgame because we are all intent on broadcasting
higher rationality on behalf of the human community.

Christopher Kubica <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Chess is now impossible to win.


Let's qualify that statement, please. Not all tournaments allow
computers and not all computers play Chess. At the ChessBase
website, for example, which you are recommending for style see
( http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3153 ) that
Deep Junior, with a rating less than 2nd, 3rd & 4th place finishers,
manages to take 1st place anyway. Where is a correlation between
ratings and tournament placement? Kasparov is holding out against
the computers, as Marion Tinsley was able to do against Chinook.



In any case, my idea is to massively raise awareness of go. Where else
to go than chess players? And what a better message, if it can be done
right, than to say "listen, you can't beat computers at that game anymore.
Here's something elegant, cool and fun to play. Try it out!"


Mining the Chess World for players isn't really promoting the game.
It's just recruitment from introverted people who were already inclined
toward some form of rational enterprise via intellectual sports. A game
itself is ancillary: pieces, tokens, mat etc., are merely that surrogate
representation of an actual game taking place in the minds of players.
A theme following _The_Cross_and_the_Switchblade_, or the math
movie _Stand_and_Deliver_, or Albert Schweitzer's African Clinic,
expresses how somebody finds a difficult situation, confronting forces
of irrationality, but then tames them toward the cause of refinement.
Our civilization game is played between rationality and irrationality.
Any of the cognitive skill games are suitable for promotion of virtue.
Perhaps the AGA should instead be "American Games Association"
to better appreciate Shogi, Xiangqi, and other viable promulgations.
Most Asian Go Clubs also offer forms of Chess to their members.



The AGA suffered from some misdirection recently in thinking that Go
had to become as popular as Chess. That goal was inverted: Go was
the original game, not Chess. Chess was developed for people who
found Go too intimidating. I've noticed that children are much more
receptive to learning Chess or Shogi than the steep learning for Go.
The strategy to recharacterize Go as a children's "capture game" --
"first capture" or "first to capture at least five stones" -- lends to an
abuse of Go's ulterior qualities. More strictly speaking, Go has a
"beyondedness" such as "taking the `fight' to a higher level" (which
might not seem like fighting anymore).

I don't think go is any harder to teach kids. It is just very different than chess.


Fortunately our inquiry is not about what you think but about what
the facts appear to indicate. As with most any game Go is certainly
easy to play. If you have worked with young children you may notice
their expressions of elation and disappointment. Once trying to make
progress beyond the "easy to play" stage there is a steep learning
curve. Most adults are still attempting to climb that learning curve.
Children sense this right away. Many children who do manage to
stay with Go have also a supportive atmosphere at home where they
receive exposure to forms of Chess. Hex is also a useful procedure.
Among many difficulties the AGA encounters are its stuck-in-the-mud
players who do not comprehend a general "sports" quality. We have
soccer activities for children at the 2005 Go Congress. Capablanca
was also capable at tennis. Strong players are in love with life itself.



I hope this works for you. The AGA has become a "good old boys
(and girls) club." It suffers from the inertia of past egomaniacs who
volunteered for nothing other than ego pumping. It is dominated by
talkers who wish to relive old memories and repeat past agendas.

Yeah, that's going to change.


I've heard that before, as well. There are "high wire" types
bristling with great ideas and the self-importance to keep riding.
In a contest between noise and silence, noise usually dominates.



* (Almost) Everyone likes me. I am a very friendly, personable and
humorous individual. I'm a connector. So what I lack in in-group
contacts I make up for in my ability to make connections quickly,
especially across potential cultural and geographical boundaries. It
is my hope that I can use this talent to convince the Japanese, Korean
and Chinese Go Associations to take us under their wings for a few
years to show us how to build a world-class go association. We'll
need their help, and I'm just the person to do it.

Some sensitivities here, and you will probably fail at this task.
Organization-building is an American skill in no way related to the
capability for Go. The quality of an association has little, if any, to
do with the quality of players in that association. Tournament software
is generic no matter how strong or weak the tournament players are.

Fail in which task? And why so pessimistic? Jeez. And what the AGA
is an organization builder. They've got enough players. And the
tournament software could make the AGA a GLOBAL leader in go
(at least in one part of it) if it was good.


Fail in having foreign organizations do sponsorship, and fail
at having egomaniacal individuals accept submission to foreign
organizations. The whole point in having a national organization
is to provide representation for the players of that nation. If you
come at this from above, or from outside, then you abandon the
integrity-based system which emanates from individual perogative.
American presence on the Globe is so inappropriately widespread
that it behooves us to back off quite a bit and allow other cultures
to blossom and to prosper. Languages are disappearing. Many
traditions are being eroded. Global corporatism is a major problem.
Small nations can manage international presence on account of Go.
China may deploy Go as a management tool: as State Communism.



Go is more widely known among the literati than you might suspect.

And your evidence is...?


Anyone who has studied the origins of writing and representation.



My idea here is good. If Ethan Hawke put go in his movies or something,
people would play go.


It's a standard practice among some acting schools, to play Go.
This does not imply that they become strong players, but familiarity.



We have players strong at both Go and Chess.
They might prefer to play Chess for other subtle undocumented reasons.

I think if Kasparov started playing go publicly, more people would play go
even if they also still played chess...at least until such time as people
started feeling sort of tic-tac-toe-ish about chess.


Kasparov is wound up tight with Chess. He senses an obligation
to the Chess community to continue promoting Chess, and Chess is
what he loves to do. Here he expresses "deep concern for its future."
http://www.chessbase.com/newsdetail.asp?newsid=3147



"Christopher Kubica" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What do you all think of this:
http://users.eniinternet.com/bradleym/Compare.html


It's dated but a worthy read. The _komi_ value has changed.
Players find what appeals to them on aesthetic grounds. Chess has
a "mass" quality which Go lacks. Aspects of Go seem "cheapened"
whereas Chess can appear "clunky." To dismiss Chess as "tactics"
ignores planning which sets up shop for a key tactical maneuver.
Having strong opponents in the form of computers is, for Chess
players, an asset rather than a liability. Some rules allow for draw
in Go, if there is an integer _komi_, or annullment for triple-ko ...
Go's supposed "superiority" is also its failing, if its conceptual
intricacies become inaccessible for young children, which is
why we again speak of Chess as a valuable training annex.



"Christopher Kubica" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think the AGA needs to take some risks that make them uncomfortable,
like daring chess players to leave the safety of chess for something
more challenging, even if they end up playing both. More people
playing both is better'n everyone playing JUST chess.


Taking risks? Daring? You've lost me there, politician.



"Christopher Kubica" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What you are leaving out of your argument is any discussion
of how China will be by far the largest and most influential
superpower in maybe 50 or so years.


Christopher neglects to mention the lack of pollution control
standards typical of nascent communist enterprises and China's
rejection of the Kyoto Protocols. More of the same? Ronald Reagan
said: "If you've seen one redwood tree, you've seen them all."



"Frank de Groot" <frank@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
that Bill Gates tried to be a strong player but he
failed and it still bugs him,

"Christopher Kubica" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Where did you read this??


======== begin insert =============
From: -
Date: Sun, Jul 21 2002 10:32 pm
Email: jumangi@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (-)
Groups: rec.games.go


[ ... ]

This appeared in an El Paso, Tx newspaper sometime during Summer 1997:


Question: Have you ever failed at anything?
w...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bill Gates: There are things I hoped for that I didn't achieve.
When I was young, I wanted to be the world's best
chess player and, of course, I didn't succeed.

I wanted to be the world's best Go player, too.

I wanted to keep IBM in a happy partnership with
Microsoft, and that didn't work out either.

There are people I wanted to hire whom I couldn't.

So I've had plenty of disappointments.

( send your queries to: askbill@xxxxxxxxxxxxx )
========= end insert ==============



Now you see what Microsoft does: they recycle old stuff from
1997 and characterize it as news from two days ago ...



"Christopher Kubica" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
1. The USA should see itself as a LEADER in go, not a follower.


This is terribly premature, all so typically American to posit
such "catch-up" as an easy task. Leadership in cognitive skill
games may well require demonstration of that cognitive skill.
If the US is lucky those remarks may be interpreted as "cute"
rather than "arrogant."



5. The features of the other servers are spotty. The AGA's would
be commercial quality, easy to use and really, really fun.


Ah, I suspected that "commercial" might soon enter the picture.
I notice that some articles at ChessBase are uninformative owing
to "pay-as-you-go" commercial intent. Multiply corruption by ten.



"Christopher Kubica" <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think most chess players are in denial about go. But they
will come around. Brick by brick.


Nope. They're not in denial. Chess is a fun game to play.



"Louise Bremner" <trap_for_junk_mail@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
At the back of each Nihon Kiin yearbook, there's a list of all the dan
diplomas that the Kiin has issued that year. At the top of the list for
2002 is "honorary 5-dan", with "William Henry Gates" under "Overseas".

Mind you, an honorary dan diploma from the Kiin doesn't mean
much--even the Japanese astronaut who "played" go in orbit was
given a shodan diploma.


The 5-dan diploma costs more, however Gates could afford it.



- regards
- jb

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