Re: rule clarification: dead stone removal

Robert Jasiek wrote:
On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:20:33 -0500, Jeff <jeffmo@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Since in practice, the Japanese rules have the same agreement phase


Same as what? The Japanese rules have hypothetical analysis; this is
not the same as a simple agreement phase.

I agree that it is different. But my point was not about the formal, or logical definition, or the protocols for tournament play; it was in response to the claim that the Japanese rules are too complex for anyone other than a professional. In my limited experience I've never seen a case that is effectively different for beginners in a "friendly" game. I suppose in this era of Internet playing there are more possibilities for disputes; how often does this actually occur?



And if it really can't be resolved, it can be played out, just like in the area scoring.


Except that the Japanese analysis playout is purely hypothetical and
requires an in infinite number of hypothetical sequences on an
infinite number of hypothetical boards. So "can be played out" is a
bit of an exaggeration.


And so, what happens in practice? In the Sensei's Library descriptions, both the Chinese and Japanese Counting methods include the phrase "remove dead stones" (more or less). I do note that in the Chinese counting you tune out, claiming its unclear, but in the Japanese counting you essentially say they are the same: "at the moment counting starts it is already clear WHAT is scored. You have determined the scoring intersections before starting counting. Whether such determination is merely an application of the rules or whether it is an agreement, this depends on the ruleset in use. -- RobertJasiek"

So please explain, what is the difference (as it would apply to beginners in a friendly game) between agreeing that a group is dead, and agreeing that the rules say a group is dead?

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Popularity of Go
    ... counting + the superko rule are no doubt less confusing to a beginner ... easily have undermined my confidence in the game at that stage. ... thinking about the score in the "Japanese" way during ...
    (rec.games.go)
  • Commentary on Korean Times Rules Article
    ... same", provided we translate Chinese half counts into full counts, use ... "The only significantly different part is the way of counting ... "The Japanese counting rule takes into account the number of empty ... Chinese counting method may look very complicated". ...
    (rec.games.go)
  • Re: rule clarification: dead stone removal
    ... The Japanese rules have hypothetical analysis; this is not the same as a simple agreement phase. ...
    (rec.games.go)
  • Re: Commentary on Korean Times Rules Article
    ... differences in rules between Japanese & Chinese Go, ... "The Japanese counting rule takes into account the number of empty ... Not in a newspaper for the general public. ...
    (rec.games.go)
  • Re: Help me Count to 10
    ... you'd generally do the same in Japanese. ... I'm not sure of the counter for marbles, but possibly it's "ko", which is used for small objects. ... Japanese does have two etymologically unrelated sets of counting numbers, one derived from Chinese and the other native. ... "Pease" used to be a mass noun in English, but now it's been replaced by the count noun "pea", which is a back-formation. ...
    (sci.math)
Loading