Re: A cornucopia of magic systems

Jefferson wrote:
Peter Meilinger wrote:
Jefferson wrote:
Peter Meilinger wrote:
Jefferson wrote:

Mostly it's because I don't think it actually is the most generic
and universal parts of the system, since you have to either
use the speicfic systems in the books or do all the work
yourself. Using the character creation system, I can make
a TL 0 hunter/gatherer, a TL 6 Tommy, or a TL 13 Starfleet
Officer. That's generic and universal, and GURPS is better
at that than HERO, in my opinion.

Yes. The _roleplaying_ stuff. Magic, technology, and so forth
are roleplaying items, they're campaign items.

Which are used to give the roleplaying the style and flavor you
want. Honeslty, I'm not sure I get where you're coming from
here. It sounds like you think GURPS would still be generic
and universal even if it had no rules at all for magic and
technology. I mean, it would still give you all you need to
role-play, you'd just have to do all the work yourself when
it comes to the campaign stuff.


Using the basic GURPS magic system, I can make... Well,
a character who uses the basic magic system.

Or uses magic as advantages (the psionic model), or gains
temporary gifts (the shapeshifting model), or uses magic items
(the gadget model). Not to mention that the basic magic system
has both spell-casting, ceremonial, and priestly forms; variable
mana levels, enchanting rules, power boosters, . . . All
straight out of the book.

Are all the rules for that stuff in the basic book now? Actually,
what is considered the "basic" book now? Last I heard you
needed at least three books to have the core rules. Would
all of that be covered in those books, without having to buy
extra costly books that you don't necessarily want? If so,
I'll grant that GURPS is a lot better than it used to be.


Furthermore if you can create a Star Fleet officer you shouldn't
have any problems creating an Ethshar Wizard

There I disagree. I have had no problem at all using HERO
to create every Ethsharitic wizardry spell I've tried, and
I specifically went through all the books looking for
descriptions or even just spell names. HERO's great for
Witchcraft, too, and it's easy to come up with a system
for HERO's Warlocks as well, though in my opinion
they're just not really suitable as PCs. I mean, you
can do anything at all you want until you drop dead?
Not exactly balanced.

If I'd wanted to create all the Ethshar wizardry spells
in GURPS I'd have had to either make do with already
existing spells, possibly with some changes, or
create stuff from scratch. If GURPS Powers changed
that, I'm very glad to hear it. Is Powers considered
part of the core rules, though?


, or a Deryni Healer,
the amount of background information required is the same. Try
and create a TL 13 Space Officer from a universe whose technology
you've developed from scratch and you've actually got _more_
problems than creating a mage.

I'm not disagreeing. I just don't see why the fact that technology
can be harder than magic means it's okay to skimp on the
magic.


If I want to
spend extra money on extra books, I can make characters
who use those specific magic systems, too. Using just the
base HERO rulebook I can make characters who use damned
near any magic system I can imagine.

How about a magic system based on C. J. Cherryh _Rusalka_ and
it's sequels? What about the partly innate, partly learned
abilities of Katherine Kurtz's Deryni books? Both of these were
well beyond HERO's background, but were rather easily done in
GURPS, even in 3rd edition.

I'm not familiar with either of them. How were they beyond
HERO's background? Can you give specifics? Do they
do things that can't be modeled using the HERO power
rules? I can quite easily believe they can't be modeled
easily, but HERO has enough vague "anything you
want" powers that it's hard for me to believe they
can't be modeled at all. Can you give me an example
of a specific power or ability you think HERO can't
model, so I can see if I agree?


Well, you've got me there. Of course, lots and lots of people like
to have MAGIC systems in their ROLEPLAYING games, and
when they're playing a generic and universal ROLEPLAYING
game they might want a MAGIC system that can emulate
anything they can think of.

See above. Magic isn't roleplaying its background or world
development. Since Hero has only one background it's impossible
to customize to world that don't share that background.

HERO does not have only one background. I don't even know
what you mean by that. The core book is very light on
background details, specifically because they know GMs
will create their own. The various supplements have
different backgrounds suited to their settings. Are you
trying to say that the Champions superhero setting is
all that HERO has? It's not, actually. And even if it
was, can you explain how exactly it's "impossible to
customize to world(s) that don't share that background?"
Because it's actually very, very easy to use the HERO
rules to play in a setting or world of your own design.
I honestly don't understand how you can think differently,
since people do it all the time.



[snip]

Since that was a relative statement, you shouldn't have any
problems naming three systems that are worse than Hero at
emulating skill-based magic. What are they?

Well, let's see. There's the old TSR Boot Hill rules.
The old TSR Gangbuster rules. The old TSR Star Frontiers rules.
The old non-TSR Alma Mater rules. The old non-TSR
Ghostbusters rules* (actually, was that TSR?) And of
course the GURPS rules before the Powers books,
and possibly after it, too.

Since none of these have magic systems (with the possible
exception of Ghostbusters, which I'm unfamiliar with) all you're
saying is that HERO is better than games which don't have magic
systems. . . . Notice the "almost" in my statement above?

No, actually. I don't see the word "almost" in anything relating
to this particular point. Could you point me to it?

That was easy. Now, so I can see where you're coming
from, could you name three systems that you think are
better than HERO at emulating skill-based magic?

Off the top of my head: GURPS Powers; GURPS Spirits; Aria; Mage
The Ascension; DC Heroes; For Faerie, Queen, and Country;
Magitech; In Nomine; Marvel Super Heroes; and Unknown Armies.
(Heck, even Vampire The Masquerade is better than HERO in this area.)

And how exactly are you defining "skill-based magic?"

A system where multiple magical effects are possible based upon a
character's training and knowledge and where it is possible that
a character might produce a new effect without changing
attributes.

I don't agree with all of your choices, then. The Marvel Super
Heroes rules I'm familiar with, for example, have no particular
skill component to them. You use your Power rankings and
your attributes to create effects, and I don't rememeber
being able to produce brand new effects, either, though I
could easily be forgetting some variable power.


In HERO, the first part is just extremely difficult
-- the second part is impossible.

It's really not. Serious question, not meant to be insulting:
How familiar are you with the HERO rules? It's extremely
easy to model levels of skill using the power rules instead
of just the skill rules, and for creating brand new effects
you've got the Variable Power Pool mechanics, which
can let you do literally anything you can think of that
the GM will allow.

Pete

.

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