Re: Torture - A lawful good act?

On Dec 1, 8:13 pm, Sea Wasp <seawaspObvi...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
veritas wrote:

> Do you see anyway to reason with

the radicals? Regards, Ken

Yes and no. In the short term, there is no way to reason with them.
Until they actually emerge into the civilized era -- something that,
despite the cars and computers, many of them (not just Muslim, mind,
but those in many other countries at a similar stage of development)
are still, in essence, thinking in a pre-industrial mindset.

This isn't going to change quicky. The change in our thinking was a
gradual one, caused by economic and technological developments that
forced a reassessment -- on a very basic level -- of the relationships
of people and possessions. Many of us have, rather naively, associated
this change with the technological shift alone, but it wasn't just the
technology, it was the TIME spent with the technology and the changes
it forced upon the people involved over a period of generations.

While I would expect the transition from essentially preindustrial to
post-industrial thinking to occur faster, it's not going to happen
overnight, and probably not in less than another generation, at least.

For our long-term well-being, however, we have to remember that
whether we are "in the right" or not, it is HOW we conduct ourselves
NOW that will be remembered by those next generations, and which will
shape the way they WANT to interact with us. The later generations may
well be able to recognize some of our motives and justifications, but
ONLY if we can really justify many of our actions -- morally.

As countries and participants in the global theatre, we are the old
hands, the adults; they are the newcomers, the children. It is
incumbent on us to *ACT* like adults, which means tolerating an awful
lot from the children as they go through the painful process that we
did years ago. You can't force them to "grow up", so to speak, and
they will have to go through a compressed -- and likely painful --
process of development just as we did, and as we still are. Rights for
the worker, accountability of rulers and bosses, etc., all only REALLY
become part of a culture when the native people reach a point where
they recognize that they can, and should, demand it.

In short then, we can't force them to stop being the way they are. We
can intervene, in VERY specific cases, in a limited way (a native
British citizen should not be abandoned to local execution), but we
can't force them to change the attitudes that led to this, nor should
we even if we could. They will not, in their hearts, learn those
lessons until they teach those lessons TO THEMSELVES.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal:http://seawasp.livejournal.com

As always, you are correct, and we do have to be patient as with
children. As you said, "In short then, we can't force them to stop
being the way they are. We can intervene, in VERY specific cases, in
a limited way..." That was what I said in 2002, it should have been a
very short, brutal, unforgettable experience to what happens if they
do what they did to us and let the local governments get a handle on
the radicals. But, we are in this mess now, and I think a
representive government in Iraqi will not work. I may be wrong, but I
see a bloodbath coming if we leave now, or five years from now. I see
no way out of the trap we put ourselves into. Thanks for clearing
that up with all of us. Regards, Ken
.

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