Re: [4e] RE: Design and Development - The Zombie


"tussock" <scrub@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:47384220@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Hmm, sorry 'bout the upcoming ramble.

No problem. Split for readability. This one is part 1.

Malachias Invictus wrote:

CR/EL system doesn't let you mix monster types and/or traps.

I consider this to be a problem worth handling.

I consider it to not exist. I have mixed monster types, traps,
terrain issues, and various challenges since day one, using the rules in
the DMG and simple extrapolations thereof.

I do this as well. They are just not very well-integrated into the system,
and it is a pain in the ass to weigh encounter strength when you throw a lot
of terrain-based monkey wrenches into the works. I would like to see
terrain modifiers to encounter difficulty be a regaulr part of the system,
rather than a tacked-on afterthought.

I want rules for calculating encounter difficulty for environmental
hazards and traps.

They're in the DMG, basically, +1 if it's tough, +2 if it's /really/
tough.

That is crap. It is really only useable for experienced GMs, and still a
pain in the ass. Sometimes +2 is not enough, and it takes a lot of
experience to eyeball such things, taking all potential synergies into
account, etc.

I also want those hazards and traps to scale all the way up.

Unless you've banned SBT, the only "traps" of note at high level are
anti-scrying, de-buffing, and anti-telporting spells. Anything short of a
TPK is just a couple of spells to fix anyway.

Ick.

As it stands now, traps top out at 10th level or so. Grimtooth has
shown this need not be the case.

I find my players are always the sort to go around. /Way/ around.
Like just don't bother with that whole trapped dungeon crap in the first
place, or get someone more stupid to do it.
Verisimilitude. The PCs are the ones who live, for a reason.

Heh.

Characters often totally run out of powers five minutes after getting
them, so everyone needs useful unlimited stuff.

I agree with this completely. If the Wizard has to fall back to
crossbow use, I consider that a failure.

Of the guy playing the Wizard. Scribe Scroll isn't there to fill in
space on the character ***.

A starting character does not have scrolls, nor the experience and gold
needed to make them.

Reserve feats fix this somewhat, but it could be done better.

Pick spells with a concentration duration, use your scrolls, use your
cantrips (which you'd know to do if you played more 1st level),

Are you kidding? I have guys using cantrips regularly all the way up.
Ghost Sound is a great distraction at any level, for example.

and use more scrolls. I really don't get how people are burning everything
up in
one encounter.

I suppose it depends on the encounter. It also depends on how much money
you are willing to burn on a given encounter. Wizards need plenty of gold
for their spellbooks as it is. That is why I am so surprised that other
groups don't use the Wizard Capitalism model like we do.

The per day/per encounter/per round thing is a great idea, because it
allows for a more precise degree of balancing playability.

Straitjacketing, I think you'll find.

I doubt it. A combination of feats and Bo9S maneuvers accomplishes the same
thing, and it does not remotely feel like straitjacketing.

A better option is open slots that can take either type of thing
at the player's option, which they may well be doing.

That is even better. A given slot can be a minor effect every round, a
medium effect once per encounter, or a major effect once a day.

On the other hand, it is a different design paradigm to make groups of
rooms synergize well into a single encounter. It is not often done in
official adventures, for example.

3e framerates suffer with too many enemies in view. 4e is lowering
the polygon count, allowing the level designers more freedom to go all
Doom II on things.

Funny analogy. That may have something to do with some monsters being too
much of a pain in the ass to run in large groups.

No one likes the classic mix of classes.

The classic mix of Fighter/Cleric/Rogue/Wizard will still be there,
along with others. They are throwing in the Warlock, which I like. I
am sure they are going to add in classes like crazy once things get
rolling. A new edition almost always curtails options; that is the only
way to reset the system bloat.

They're stealing the Barbarian. Again.

I still think the Barbarian can be modelled just fine as a Fighter with a
certain "talent tree."

Oh, and changing devils and demons,

At least they are trying to make them different. Hell, at this point, a Pit
Fiend and a Balor are almost fraternal twins.

and messing with alignment.

Good riddance.

Didn't 2nd edition do that?

Yes.

Didn't doing that kinda suck last time?

Yes. Of course, the devil and demon changes last time were designed to make
them less offensive, not make them better. Alignment has changed countless
times.

You like the game best from 5th-15th level, so the low level feel is
gone and we're adding in all the Epic stuff to core.

I doubt the low level feel will be gone.

If my 1st level party of five finds fifteen goblins to be not that
much of a problem, the low level feel is gone. End of story.

Hmm. Maybe it is just the power gamer in me talking, but in a straight up
fight, 15 goblins is doable at 1st level. Granted, it is not a guaranteed
success (unless you are fighting in a narrow corridor), but goblins are not
exactly difficult to fight, especially if you have Sleep memorized (perhaps
twice).

On the other hand, if they lower the likelihood of one-shots on 1st
level PCs, I would not fuss at all. The 3E Epic rules suck ass. I
would rather see Epic included in Core, and done right.

Right? Which right? BXCM-Immortals rules?

Eh.

Arduin?

That is what I am talking about.

Darksun 21-30?

Interesting, at least for that setting.

Elminster and the other Mary Janes?

Mary Sue ;-P

I reckon they're not doing any of
that, just stretching 20th level power out to level 30, and removing epic
alltogether. But that's mostly guesswork. 8]

They *have* mentioned that level 20 in 4E will be roughly equivalent in
power to level 20 in 3.5E.

Wuxia jumping tricks are awesome, realism sucks.

You disagree with this? D&D characters, beyond a certain level, are
practically superheroes. D&D is not particularly realism-based, and it
never has been.

My words aren't the best there. DnD was pretty low level heroism for
a start, and for a very long time getting past "a certain level" took a
good few /years/ of play. Up 'till the 3e treadmill kicked in most people
played realistic heroic characters all the time.
Action movie, not wuxia. Defying probability rather than physics.
Even old-school magic used to kick the caster in the ass if he relied on
it for too many things.

Sure. I like having multiple levels of play, up to and including
superheroic levels.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley



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