Re: Vow of Poverty - Weapons Allowed?
- From: golden-span--one@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 19:30:16 GMT
ok. i've been playing a vow of pverty monk for going on three years
now. Started at first. Just hit 15'th the other day.
Please note that this is how I've been playing it, and how me, and my
GM have deemed it "suitable" for playing.
also, FYI, we're playing under the ebberon setting, so this missive
may be somewhat "flavored" by that.
Your actual millage may vary, and i'm sure that i'll probably upset
someone with my take on it.
Firstly, the rules allow for a simple set of clothing, a simple (non
special ability) weapon, enough food for a day, and a few other minor
items (like wooden cuttlery, etc)
under the ebberon setting, all Citizens are expected to carry
identification papers. Ok. they're listed as costing 5 gold, which
tecnically is a violation of the VOP, (no possesions with real
monitary value), however as the rules of the land say that i've got to
carry them, then i carry them. as a bit of flavor, most people
have some form of case to keep them in, to prevent every day wear and
tear. the Very rich, and or austentatios (SP) have bejeweled
wallets, or other similar items to keep them in. the "not so
extremely rich" use a scroll case, or similar. The Very poor tend
to either not have them (they're poor after all) and if they do, they
keep them between two bits of wood.
Right now i'm onto my 9th? 10th? "two bits of wood and some twine".
i keep giving it away to people who need it more than i do.
ACtually, after #10, the rest of the party started nominating one of
them to carry my papers for me. seems they finally cottened on to
the fact that i just didnt see the need.
When i first started playing, the simple weapon i started with was a
crossbow. and no more than 12 bolts.
under the ebberon setting the soverign host has 12 deities. i
carried one bolt for each. if possible i tried to recover ones that
were recoverable. if they weren't, then i'd replace them once we got
somewhere where i could.
after a while, the rest of the party had ranged combat pretty well
taken care of, so i stopped using it. one one particular
adventure we were holled up in a small village, that was beset by some
form of undead. i ended up giving it away to a farmer, who, i
figured, needed it more than i do. (he actually manageed to tag a
vampire with it, some time later, and last we heard, was being treated
as some form of artifact by the village. they've gone and built a
shrine to it and everything. Fortunatly the party memebers who found
this out have seen fit NOT to tell Brother Justin about it. if i
ever actually find out about it, justin will probably be rather
embarraced)
One of the by-products of adventuring is, as i'm sure you're all
aware, rather a lot of gold.
Brother justin gets his share, just like the other 7 members of our
band. Whilst the others Like to live it up, celebrate, and then go
get kitted out for the next adventure, Brother justin Believes in
"re-distribulting the wealth".
The first few sacks worth of gold were given to the poorest people he
could find (FYI, that's the people in the Fallen Area of Sharn)
After several more adventures, Justin decided to set up a Community
center in Fallen, and is now seen by many as somewhat of a community
leader. By others (mainly the more corrupt members of the city
council, and by the local crime bosses) he's seen as a dangerous
trouble maker.
the problem is, that Justin is practically a saint (which, is actually
something i'm working towards. *hint* *hint* ((Just in case my re is
reading this !!)))
All of the monies that he earns, either thru adventuring, "charitable
gifts" and the several thousand gold that someone planted in his bed
chamber to make it look like he was skimming, have ALL gone to
charities, worthy causes, or to help people out.
Of his starting equipment, the crossbow, the simple robes, the wooden
eating impliments, etc, only the robes on his back still remain.
(Ok, and the ID paprers)
Boots, aren't really a problem, (Justin is a shifter) and the one
time someone tried to give him a pair, he honestly didnt know what to
do with them. This actually spawned a whole side quest, as as far
as justin was concered, he now owned something that was an
extavagance, and so he had to go off and find someone for whom a pair
of (in truth, not all that good) boots would be seen as a boon.
(the rest of the party were actually agast at the whole concept of
doing an adventure that had little or no monitary reward, andin their
eyes was a total non issue. )
as for the whole "no magic items of any kind" thing, i can tell you
that there are quite a few times that one of more magic items would
have prevented a whole lot of headaches.
a simple potion of flying, a cure L/M/S/C wounds, an item of
resistance, anything.
however the bonus's gained from the vow of poverty more or less make
up for it.
A lot of people on here have looked at the VOP, and said "that's quite
munchkin".
However i can tell you that, whilst it it slightly more powerfull than
your average feat, it's not actually that unhinged.
Firstly you gain an extra exhaulted feat every other level. There
really arent that many that are actually that powerfull, and after 6
or 7, you pretty much run out of feats that you can actually qualify
for.
Secondly, you gain a bonus to hit and to damage. By 15th that's a
total of +3. Hands up anyone who can honestly say that their 15th
level characters are running arround with a weapon that's lower than
than. . anyone? i thought not.
Thirdly, you get a total of +12 to armour class. +9 that counts as
armor. +2 deflection, and +1 natural.
well, that's a +2 set of plate. or a +4 chain shirt.
Again, any non mage / Sorcerers out there with an AC bonus that low?
What about your rings of protection? Magic shields? Cloaks of
resistance?
FYI, Justins AC is actually only a point or two above average for the
party. Infact it's the difference between his Dex Bonus, and the
party average higher.
(which isnt bad for a party that happens to be paladin/Cleric heavy)
now for the point that pretty much everyone who's looked at the Vow of
poverty has looked at and said "that's overpowered".
+6/4/2 to some stats.
"that's broken" i hear you cry.. Looking arround the table at last
weeks game, i did a quick count up. our main line fighter was using
a +6 set of Gauntlets of ogre power. The mage, a +5 <hat> of
intelect. the order of the bow initiate a +5 <vest> of charisma, and
+4 gauntlets of dexterity.
not to mention that before a big fight, if we have chance to prep,
everyone gets cats grace'd, bull strenght'd and haste'd.
so all in all, not actually that broken.
As for the original question. What counts as a simple, non magical
weapon?
IMO, it's any weapon that's free from additions. That's not worth
anything more than a basic "off of the shelf" version of the weapon.
if, for some reason your campaign setting has all weapons made from
gold, because gold is the standard mineral that wepaons are made
from, and no one would think twice about using one, then someone with
a Vow of Poverty would be allowed to carry one.
similarly, if Gorgonzola was the near mithical element of uberness
that everyone lusts after, then someone with the VOP wouldnt be seen
carrying it.
On 23 May 2007 05:57:02 -0700, Brent <digital.brent@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 23, 7:04 pm, Bruce L Grubb <bgr...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:.
I think that there are real world examples (Knights Templar) of howActually, by very definition, land was the one and only fundamental
while *individuals* in a group might be poor the group as a whole
might be fantasticly wealthy. Even the Franciscan Orders started out
on vows of *total* poverty had to give in to reality when they went
monastic and many Orders owned land (a major source of income under
the feudal system)
basis of socio-economic power. It was an economic system based upon
the ownership of land.
No RGP I have seen handles wealth very well even when there are rulesOh, I don't know. I think the thing with economics in RPGs is that to
govering it. In D&D where the economic system is a total train wreck
such limits on wealth are doomed to failure.
effectively incorporate realistic economics into RP, it would require
both a whole new set of rulebooks, and a DM with a Bachelor in
economics (or an equivalent expertise therein). It is just
unrealistic, especially when you consider the amount of work
involved.
As such, I consider the lack of an economic structure in RPGs to be a
strategic decision, rather than a careless lacking. Indeed, you could
say that they do have a system, total 'ceteris paribus' (i.e. the term
used in economics meaning 'all things remaining constant. Used
primarily to hypothetically isolate and test individual market
variables). D&D, at least, enforces total ceteris paribus on all
market influences and trends, usually (with exceptions being made at
the DMs behest). Inflation, unemployment, demand, supply, and
elasticity are usually static.
I think this works well, considering the lack of operable
alternatives. Though, what I would suggest as a decent idea (I think
AD&D2 had this in the DMG), is a breif rundown of economic effects,
influences, and causes. Simply explain deman, supply, elasticity,
competition, monopoly and how these things might impact the game world
(Like the effects of an undersupply, oversupply, increase and decrease
in demand, elasticity/inelasticity- plus example goods, players
pouring cash into a poor village, and basic consequences of government
intervention in the market). Also a breif rundown of the major
economic systems and their characteristics. Basically Microeconomics
101 in a few paragraphs. Probably best to leave macroeconomics out of
it entirely.
Actually, I do have issue with 1 major aspect of D&D economics, and
that is in it's price equations for magic items. Whilst I understand
the need for guidelines, for clueless DMs, I still hold an issue to
dispute. D&D approaches the pricing of an item from a 'labour theory
of value' perspective, whilst completely ignoring 'market theory of
value' (That is to say, it purports that the price of a good is
derived solely from the labour put into it, rather than the forces of
demand and supply surrounding it). I think it should be the inverse.
It is not too hard to wrap one's mind around that the major
determinants for price are demand, supply, and elasticity. As noted
earlier, it is impractical to try to encode a living natural market,
however, it is easy to simulate a believable one. Simply state the the
prices listed in the equipment section are subject to market forces as
determined by the DM. Then in the DMG you give a simple table of
example approximate percentage modifiers to price as depending upon
various economic influences. An increase in supply will drop prices, a
decrease will raise them. An increase in demand will raise prices, a
decrease drop them. An increase/decrease in the price of a substiute
will effect an inverse increase/decrease in price of a good, just as
an increase/decrease in the price of a complement with effect a
similar increase/decrease in price of a good. For magic good, this
should be especially true.
It just drives me nuts when a PC wants to simple go to the closest
town and buy his flaming longsword, seeing as he has saved enough
gold. Or when the party thinks they can flog off a ruby statuette
hauled from a dungeon somewhere. Regardless of the listed price of
these items, the price is irrelevant if there is no demand or supply.
Or powerplayers who want to buy artifacts. Sheesh. Purchasing
something is as simple as finding a supply, usually easy enough with a
bit of research. Selling things, however requires finding a demand,
often a difficult task. I think 'bargaining' should be a skill
(usefull for both buying and selling), and I think 'appraise' should
be restricted only to discerning an items genuinity.
So you would have a breif description of economics in the DMG,
variable prices in the PHB (dependant upon a simplified modifier table
in the DMG, bargaining as a skill, the phasing out of static value,
and example effects of various common in-game events (war,
overtaxation, bandits, feudalism, prohibition, etc).
- References:
- Re: Vow of Poverty - Weapons Allowed?
- From: Bruce L Grubb
- Re: Vow of Poverty - Weapons Allowed?
- From: Brent
- Re: Vow of Poverty - Weapons Allowed?
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