Re: Friday quiz - munchkin party?

DougL wrote:

<Re: TWF vs 2-handed>

Don't Monte Carlo it. The situation is simple enough to simply
calculate average damage.

Grrr. I'm getting more and more sick of this basic assumption error. It *completely* overlooks blowthrough.

The *real* figures come out through HTK. Hits to kill. Determine that and you can find what things really matter, use the full range if you're capable with a spread*** or other tool.

But simply: Two Weapon Fighting if everything hits does 1d10+1d6+1.5 x
Str Bonus. One Two handed weapon using two points for power attack has
the same hit chance, and so the wielder hits once with his one weapon
for each time the TWF hits with each of his weapons.

It's good to assume a fighter has PA/Cleave with any two-handed weapon (its Cleave the obviates most of the blowthrough, and is therefore so vital), but that's likely enough to be a Weapon Focus feat you missed on the other guy, and so it's only *one* point of Power Attack with an equal number feats.

Even using a Katana the THF does 1d10+4+1.5xStr Bonus, which averages
better and doesn't need an exotic weapon proficiency (so you take
weapon focus instead).

1d10+2, which is less. But let's get interesting, like with a Rogue level. Now you're doing 1d10+1d6+2 2-handed vs 1d10+1d6+2d6 TWFing: five points less. Same trick with Favoured Enemy (hey, look who gets TWFing).
But then, we're talking about Samuri, not multiclassers, so let's back off that point for a moment.

If he goes with a real two handed weapon he does 2d6+4+1.5xStr Bonus,
and averages much better damage. (At level 1 you can't do two points of
power attack, but the two handed sword STILL wins on average vs.
reasonable AC.)

Here's were your analysis really falls down. Average damage (and we're in a low-level thread here, so bear with me) against low CR critters is *not* the nominal 12 points, because low CR critters often don't even have 12 hit points, let alone the 17 max.

The average amount of damage you waste over time with each kill is half your average per hit (though it can easily be more or less against particular opponents, at 1st level it can be everything over 4).
So the Greatsword wastes about 6 points per creature, where the paired swords waste only 2 or 3. Now, suddenly, the paired swords win again. Add more Strength and there's even more relative waste on the greatsword.

But then you get the first attack often only working with one weapon (unless you suck the charge, which is normally to be avoided), so the paired weapon looses 4 points on the first round.



1st round, adv greatsword. 1st death, pretty even. 2nd death, advantage daisho. Running battle? Greatsword. Got charged? Daisho. Creatures the greatsword normally /just/ kills in one hit go to him, a few more hit points and it's to the daisho. Clever use of PA and it's the greatsword. You get the picture.
If you have to take Proficiency and TWFing out of class, it's _not_ a good deal, the two feats hurt (go for two-bladed sword for the cheap Specialisation as a Fighter, it's the highest potential damage in the game).

*Lots* of variables, but if get TWFing as a class feature, it is absolutely worth making use of. Substantially so if you can add some flat bonus damage (other than Strength) the TWFer wins every time.

Hard to account for Cleave, mind you. If you're hitting lots it's awesome, but is vulnerable to someone else getting the kill, or enemies not gathering up correctly. If Cleave just keeps working, it's fantastic news for the greatsword. Against particularly low HP things you're already too far behind to catch the daisho though.

If both fighters need to further power attack the two handed weapon
improves even more. If both fighters need to roll a 19 to hit the two
handed weapon fighter can forget to power attack and hit twice as
often.

TWFers *don't* take PA, it's not their shtick, and they're no good at the chain anyway. Especially true with all the splatbook Two-Weapon feats to buy out these days.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.
.

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