Re: Speaking of flutes

On 109khz erimess shrieked:
Ashikaga wrote:
<snip>
Yeah, right. You're *still* living in a fantasy world when it comes
to business. Actually, you're still living inside a textbook. And I
hate to tell you this, most of the BAD managers I've worked for are
the ones trying to live inside a textbook world. (Or they are just
general assholes.) If you don't start listening to the real employees
inside the real companies in real conditions who have worked for real
managers in a real life for many years, then you're going to end up
there yourself. Bad managers also tend to refuse to listen to anyone
else who tries to tell them this stuff, because they think they
already know it all. That's a hint.

I think you still don't think I've been learning a lot of hard lessons in
my past to come up with the stuff I've told you. It seems you have a very
confused idea what we've learned in school.

My ideas of what you learned at school came directly from your mouth.
You keep trying to act like I can't know any of this stuff when
*you're* the one who says it. I *can* read, you know. We've been
through this before. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why you
keep insisting that I'm blind to everything you've said for the seven
years I've known you.

But you keep interpret my words that I never intended, added your
disenchantment of the issue as a flavor. How does that help you understand
my position?

I never said you are blind, nor can't read. Do you know when people get
old, their life experience accumulated, they tend to become stubborn
because their life has taught them NOT to accept certain things? It's like
when one puts their own hand on a hot stove, the experience has scared them
forever now they cannot see it the same way again.

I mean we both has gotten aged. I keep noticing my cynicism has sunk in,
but I am aware of the issue at the conscious level. I keep it in check so
I don't become bitter and close-minded. I know when I finally submit to
that distrust, I would stop improving myself with new ideas (that may or
may not once as a faulty idea). I am extremely fearful I would fall off
the cliff because my cynicism blinds me from seeing things the way they
are. Yet I see people like you, who is very self-righteous about your own
experience, that other people's experience must be discredited to comfort
self of the world-inverting changes, only because you were branded once
before of the same experience. I know it sounds rude, but this is how I
see you, as a third person. It's often more difficult to see one's own
fault, but hopefully we don't blame others for our shortcomings out of
stress.

<optional side note, probably boring as hell, and moralistic like a
preacher>
The world is getting /amoral/ (not that it's a new movement, but I mean the
trend never really stops ever since people bring that concept to the
conscious level), and sometimes it's harder for people to grasp something
if it has no meaning. I don't want to undermine you again..., but I've
said a billion times, everything has a meaning, just whether we know it or
not. You just keep living the world the way it is, but fail to grasp the
essense why you do certain things, why you are angry, why you felt
hopeless, but we all know how to nag, don't we?

Some people are lost. They are the ones who think they born, live, then
die, making a lot of $$$ in the process. They live, but they don't really
live. A lot of times there is a universal meaning. Some we know, some we
are searching for, and some we don't and probably will never know. There
are other times the meaning is made by ourselves. But everything has a
meaning, to you, to me, to everyone who lives a meaningful life. You are
not an ant or a bee, who lives collectively, and their sole purpose is for
their community.

Human are selfish people. We are more cats than bees. That's why we
laugh, cry, angry or disgusted. If we stop being selfish, we would become
bees or ants, and stop convincing ourselves we are important. Whether we
live or die won't matter. That's amoral. If you want to be regarded as
important, better find a meaning and live through it. You don't come to
this world to die. You come here to make a difference.

Most people have very simple wishes and have very simple lives like that
(e.g., I want to eat at xyz restaurant one day, I want to buy that red
jacket). Not there is anything wrong with it (everyone has different
dream), but it's something I noticed. People stopped dreaming grand
visions ever since the the end of 1800's, when Realism movement started
(and Romanantics, in today's view, are rather radical and unrealistic).
What replaced Seven Wonders of the World is "Hopefully I can keep my job
until I retire." Which one is more realistic?
</optional side note>

I do not think you realize the reason why Dalboz got so stressed out is
because of the modern business theories that is flat structure. I do not
know what structure Dalboz's company is using, but the stress out come from
the result of flat structure, which "empowers" employees with
responsibility and decision making authority. I do not believe Dalboz's
workplace has a flat structure, but it has the worse of the two worlds, a
lot of work (from flat structure), and a boss who is a dictator (from tall
structure).

A lot of work and a boss who is a dictator has not one f***ing thing
to do with the type of structure the company has. That happens
everywhere, so that's another one of your delusions. You're trying to
analyze the situation by ripping the company to shreds by studying its
structure. I imagine I understand why Dalboz is stressed much better
than you do.

Yes, it happens everywhere, but WHY? Do you always believe people were
born devils that they just enjoy torturing people? Do you realize how
irrational the argument is?

BTW, don't imagine, ask for additional information. I first assumed
Dalboz's boss was a certain type of person, then he disclosed more
information which allowed me to better analyze the situation. One can only
be as accurate as the information provides and not everyone is always
disclosing the full details, so discrepency occurs. You don't always
provide full-story, do you? You never do. You always provide only story
that aids your side, but that's hardly helpful for deciding the issue.

I also have never heard of you mention your own scenarios that would
support your ideas. All I hear from you is that my ideas are fantasy and
are bull***, and yet I've provided more support than you do for people to
make an unbiased judgement.

[Aside to Dalboz: Dear, I think you should restructure your company.
And then when your boss is a dictator and you still have too much
work, I'm sure you'll feel *much* better for it knowing it's not the
*structure* of the company anymore.]

Sigh.

I told you to take a hint. Now why would I expect you to do that?
You are WELL on your way to being one of those BAD bosses, because you
don't listen and you still are ignoring the situation. That's exactly
what bad bosses who don't listen do. When one of your employees is
trying to explain something SIMPLE to you, you're still going to not
be listening and be off analyzing some delusional hypothetical
business structure situation.

Speak for yourself.

When an employee requested something simple, if I ever have to disagree,
I'd have to explain to them why I am refusing, even when it's simple (and I
can tell if they are bored with it in RL, so I know when to be concise). I
cannot just telll them a no. I am not the kind of boss who would tell
people "NO, because it's the policy." I would tell them "No, because...".

You have to tell people why they are placed in a place that's unfavorable,
you have to tell them why are being punished/rewarded, you have to tell
them how things work, why their action is positive or not, or they'd refuse
to work. You are really the minority here (but of course we all think we
are the majority). Most people appreciate that I make things easier for
them, because they don't feel lost in a big company with very specific
rules that rid off people of any personality, and decision making authority
(we had a strict dress code..., can you imagine that in clothing retailing
chain that emphasizes personality?). Why would you do anything if it's
"the policy" rather than "there is a good reason for it"? Even if the
reason is a pseudo reason (not that we should do that often), it still
comforts people, so they can convince themselves they are not doing
something for a worthless cause. You don't know how it is when we all know
the company credit card is just greed, but we still tried to cheer
ourselves up so we can actually do such stupid work. (that's why I hate
pseudo reasons) I wonder if you have learned in school to abolish any rule
that has no obvious reason.

The reason I don't tell you what we've learned in school overtly

Except that you have, over and over and over and over.... SIGH!!!
Where are you getting this impression that you haven't told me any of
this stuff? HELLO!!

Then why you never seem to listen? Don't you think I am very tired of
repeating the same thing?

is because
it seems to me you seem to know what I was talking about and so I don't
want to treat you like an idiot and retell you everything like what's
Theory X, Theory Y, tall structure, flat structure. But I think it's time
for definition stuff, since that's a very important part of communication.

Yes, I went to school. I took the same bull*** courses and learned
the same bull*** things. And prompty forgot it because it was all
bull***. And therefore am not even going to *think* about reading
your definitions. One reason I don't like the idea of going *back* to
school is cause I don't *want* to study anymore bull***.

What did I tell you about self-fulfilling prophecy? I was open-minded
enough to try it out without scepticism and it worked for me (though not
always perfectly). People feel their bosses are not treating them properly
and now when we have theories that teach people to respect employees, and
now you think it's bull***? I don't understand your logic here. Do you
agree with my former boss, who think I don't whip people enough (and the
presumption that punishment is the only motivating factor for people to be
productive)?

Remember, make decision with your head, and manage with a heart. You
cannot go against human nature and treat people like non-thinking machines.
That's what bad bosses do.

You're proving that you're doing exactly what I'm saying you're doing.
Cause you're doing it right now!!!

Didn't I tell you several dozen times I DON'T want to explain everything
because it sounds condescending? Yet, your lack of understanding on the
subject made me think perhaps providing these FYI stuff as courtesy
reminder will resolve the misunderstanding (I will try everything to make
everything peaceful). Because you really were talking about something
that's just not the theory was referring to. You are blaming your bad
boss's behaviors to something they FAILED to do, which is treating people
like human beings. It all stems from your distrust of management and the
theories they studied (but they don't use).

Just because they are your boss doesn't make them smarter than you are
(that's not why they are your boss). Just because they studied the theory,
doesn't mean they know the it well, other than they got an A on the test.
I always go by what people exhibit, but not what they claim. People can
get the same grade from the same school, and yet their ability varies,
sometimes drastically.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. The more you hate them, the more likely they'll
fit into that image you created in your own head, because you gave them no
alternative. When you beat people too much, they will have no choice but
to fight back, then you just created the criminals you thought they were.

<Bull*** definitions snipped>

WHY, WHY, WHY do you INSIST upon turning EVERY subject on the face of
this earth into some business model?????? You could turn a CAT into a
business model. You never even responded to what I actually said --
instead of paying attention you went off on a dissertation of why
Dalboz is stressed due to his company's structure. (Yup, you're well
on your way to that "bad boss" zone.)

And yet the reality proves the contrary. I wonder why.

I assumed you know a lot of the stuff I talk about, and that's the whole
reason why I don't /have to/ (as oppose to "not wanting to") respond to
your stuff. It's probably my fault to assume we are on the same
wavelength.

If I want to explain everything, the post would be several times longer
than it is and who wants to read all these business theories just so we can
get on the same wavelength? You obviously don't, so I avoided it to the
bare essential and you seem not to not notice that....

I know what you were talking about, and I told you it's not as simple as
you think. You are looking things on their surface, not knowing the
underlying issue. To cure a problem from the root, you have to know it's
the business structure that's /fundamentally/ at fault. Unless we can
restructure the stuff (therefore, the need to discuss the business model),
you can keep ignore the problem, nag about it, or at best, cure the obvious
problem, another problem will resurface, because the instrinsic problem is
NOT addressed. Do you think taking medicine for cold will cure pneumonia?
The symptom looks like cold, but that's not the fundamental problem. Why
is it so difficult to understand what I was trying to say?

Do you really think Dalboz's boss is just plain evil and wants to get
everyone she can? Or perhaps, she is just another victim. That's what I
was talking about. It's the business model that is affecting her, and she
was just another victim and unfortunately, she is the boss and therefore,
trigger down the effect. If you keep nagging, it'll just create a lot of
distrust between management and employees and guess what caused all the
problems you just mentioned? The employees themselves.... Who gets fired?
The one with less power (usually employees, because people are good at
blaming fault to save their jobs, so the treachery just exerbates itself).

I am being very plain now, do you see what I am getting at? Don't try to
evade the REAL problem. I know it's big, and usually we are so
disempowered to feel we can make any difference, so we just resorted to
address the problem that's facing us immediately, forgetting the bigger
issue (trust me, I know what it feels like, or I wouldn't be saying this).
If you keep thinking it's managers' problem, then you just added more
pressure to them and they'll just lash out and you'd just get yourself hurt
in the process. In your mind, you are the victim. In their minds, you
inflict a wound to their already mounting problems. You just made the
problem worse, not better.

When I was the sales coach, I knew this downward spiral and when my
subornidates got stressed out and got angry, I took a step back and let
them do whatever they like for a while. In their own mind, they see only
their own problems, whereas I have to see 50+ people's /conflicting/
problems. I cannot get angry at them because I knew they were only
protecting their own interest. I could simply tell my boss and let her
take care of the issue (which is usually fire them, she was insensible like
that), but they were good employees, and personal friends. They just don't
know if I listened to their advice word by word, another employees'
interest would be violated. Not everyone wants to work in the front of the
store, but if I have limited staff (which is 99% of the case), I have to
place someone there, don't I?

Now you must be thinking what does any of my experience at a retailing has
to do with you. You are right, NOTHING. That's why I kept stuff at the
very general level (which you think it's a fantasy world). You are always
so "concrete" in your stuff, but you don't seem to realize, your own
experience has no significant to others. It's too specific, and it's
important to you ONLY. That's why I always keep things at the "conceptual"
level (have you ever met a professor who teaches their own life experience
instead of a textbook example as the primary source of their lecture?). I
can't blame you for being concrete, because you are an accountant, you care
for stuff that's material, and that's what it takes to be a good accountant
(have you noticed I plaud people for their talents, because I actually care
about my people enough to pay attention to their character?). I am NOT an
accountant material, I do finance (I do not how many times I have tell
people I do finance to make them realize I'm not an accountant nor think
like them). I look at things at macro scale, not micro scale. I look at
problem from top, not at my immediate level.

A company needs both macro level people and micro level people, since it's
all complementary of each other. If you think the problem that's more
immediate to you is the more important problem, and think everyone should
think the same way, then it'll be a very unsuccessful company that's very
narrow in view.

How is that for pedagogy? See why I've always avoid stuff like this, so
people don't get to be treated like an idiot (but you think I do
anyways...). Just respect there is difference in people's view, position,
job description, philosophy and their personal priorities. We are not
erimesses. I do not know what you were thinking and you don't know me
either, so don't pretend, only respect there is a difference. You know
what you are doing, and I know what I am doing. Don't you hate a boss who
thinks only their way of doing things is the RIGHT way?

Don't ever tell me I am a bad boss again (have you ever been managed by me
to warrant this blatant accusation?), you were really pushing me and I felt
being polite to you was totally meaningless. I care about every single of
my subordinate's interest and that's one of the reasons why my own job is
sacrificed (though I have to assume you didn't know, or I couldn't explain
why would anyone want to hurt people like this).

I am NOT ego-centric like you. I don't look at things near-sighted as you.
I do NOT constantly nag like you and blaming other people for your problem
just because you are unable to empathize. It's very easy to blame others,
but that's an over-simplification of the issue and it only adds more stress
to all the people around you. Why makes you think you can be a better boss
than I am when you can't see things from other people's eyes? Do you think
telling your subordinate "that's who you are" "you'll be a bad boss" "you
live in your fantasy world" instead of genuinely listen to their viewpoint
make you a better boss? You can't even listen (I've found myself often
repeating stuff) and it's always funny you accuse me of the faults you
have. I can't help but think you are projecting.

I am always curious where did you get the idea I am the person you said I
am. It seems you invented an enemy in your head, so it's easier for you to
hate. Always think things in positive light..., try this for your own
mental health, PLEASE. Don't tell me I am too trusting (and do you think I
am always this trusting? I certainly was not very trusting when you first
met me; something along the life changed me). You have to trust people, or
guess who is the person who is ultimately going to be hurt..., the cynic
him/herself.

Someone please catch the blood dripping down the wall from my head. I
did manage to resist looking at this reply for a few days. Is this
kinda like that morbid curiosity that makes you look at the gruesome
dead body anyway?

You must have mistaken me for Poly.

--
Ashikaga - a29 5/13/2007 9:28:30 AM
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