Re: I know you guys would hate me for this....

On 423khz Ibn al-Hazardous shrieked:
tor 2006-05-25 klockan 07:39 +0000 skrev Ashikaga:
<snip>
I did. I prefer making everything brief. If there is nothing to disagree
with you about, or if something that has no positive point of arguing, I
usually just snip them.

Ok, it still feels very weird to elaborate on a very small part of my
reply to you - not knowing how you respond to the snipped part. It
increases the risk of rehashing stuff unnecessarily.

That's fine. Find some points that you find that's troubling you and I
will gladly answer it for you.

BTW, I'll continue to snip stuff that I consider to be moot points, so if
there is anything that you thought to be important that you wanted an
answer, the above rule applies. I'm merely trying to cut down the stuff so
it doesn't get so bloated and so lack of focus. I think we may have lost
the reason why we are responding to it, but merely responding for the sake
of it....

<snip>
I do not see how gender play a role here. I do not treat women any more
favorably than men (just for being women), if that's what you are
suggesting (which is also discrimination, just in different form). While
we lack of female bodies here, she isn't the only woman. I treated her
favorably because we have had a very sensitive history, so I have to be
extra careful around her. Besides, I wish there can be a normalized
relationship between us, though I know there is a very little chance of
becoming cuddly-friendly with each other.

Treating women favourably wasn't exactly what I meant; 'pouncing on
critisism' comes closer. When it comes from a man, you are much more
likely to treat the man with respect - either taking it as a joke
between men, or actually arguing the point. With erimess you try to make
it her 'fault' by psychoanalyzing her - which is insulting.

I don't think I am psychoanalyzing her. I am suggesting stuff using my
inductive reasoning, which I believe /may apply/ to her. Stuff I say never
meant to insult her. But it's possible people take it that way. I am
pretty sure there are events that happened to you the same way when other
people never meant to offend you but you took it the wrong way. And that's
the whole reason why I suggested try not to assume stuff (and the whole
list). I just don't understand what's so hard to understand my intention,
but you two must take it maliciously.

<snip>
Guys here do that to each other all the time!

This is your problem in one sentence. Sure you treat guys and gals
differently.

That's like jumping from Point A to Point E. Please tell me how you jump
into that conclusion.

Don't overly protect the other gender just because it gives you instant
gratification. I find a lot of guys do that so they won't be labeled as
sexists. Treat everyone fairly, equally and with respect I think is
sufficient.

Anyways, the current conflict started by saying I mistreated my cat.

How did you respond to that? You did not say: "whatever" or "no I'm
not".

I don't like using excuses.

And so you don't respond to the point at all, but just starts to point
out what you find to be wrong with erimess. Isn't that what they call
'ad hominem'? And you wonder why she's angry?

Except I didn't intend to make her angry. She at least could ask for
clarification instead. Everyone has some faults that they themselves
cannot see. So if she does have faults that I see, then I cannot point
them out just because I am a guy?

Also, she pointed out that the way you anthropomorphize (sp?) your
cat makes it seem like you are projecting your life onto him - instead
of being sensitive to your cat. I agree with her. Your answer was an
attack on her. She was not diplomatic, but the post she responded to was
really screwed up.

It was Sammie who said I anthropomorphize cats, not her.

Anthropomorphizing _is_ mistreating.

I wonder where you get that idea. So if I wrote a poem in similies, like a
flower is smiling at me, then I am mistreating the flower?

I understand what you are trying to say, btw. I took a semester of
anthropology myself. What you are saying is treat them the way they are.
Like treating indigenous (sp?) people the way they are without judging them
using our westernized perspective. You are arguing that we should do the
same thing for cats. But I am empathizing my cat's feeling. It is you
guys who assumes (or psychoanalyze) I am "anthropomorphizing." This is
putting words into my mouth and saying "that's exactly what you mean" when
I don't mean it that way.

Giving a cat candy is
anthropomorphizing, and it'll make the cat sick. Treating the cat like
something it isn't is damn well going to hurt the cat. Erimess never
disagreed with Sammie, if I understood her reaction right - she blew it
when you couldn't see this part.

If that's her point, then she should deliver it this way instead of blowing
at people. BTW, I would never give my cat candy or liquor like my father
sometimes does.... If Ranmao wants a hug, I give him one. If he looks a
little sad, I try to find out what's wrong and make him happy. That's all
I do. Why is that so evil?

I read my own
posts and I do realize it, even while I am composing my own post, it does
sound like a projection of my life onto him. But it is how Ranmao lives,
and my life is no longer in depression, so what would be the reason for
projecting my past feeling onto the present Ranmao? Doesn't that sound at
least a little weird?.

Frankly, I'm not saying that I don't think you're weird - so this line
of argument leads nowhere.

Don't know what you are trying to accomplish anyways. If there is no point
arguing, it's better to stay quiet. At least that's what I learned.
Snippage is your friend.

If Ranmao has issues, don't you think it's my
responsibility to take notice, see what seems to be the problem (i.e.,
dietary disorder, weight loss, mood swings, seem to be daze a lot) and try
to resolve it?

Yes I do, but what do you do if it is not curable?

Spend a quality time with him for the duration of his remaining life. If I
were dying, then I'd rather seeing people laughing rather than mourning, as
if I were truly dying. I don't want special treatment, just live each day
like a normal one. Just because I am dying doesn't mean everyone should
die with me.

If Ranmao is a human kid, would you ignore all those
physical and emotional problems you observed? Obviously there is a great
discrimination between human and animals. In fact, not too long ago, some
human beings are still treated like subhuman beings, just because they are
"different".

Ranmao is a CAT! Not a human being. You can't draw that parallell unless
you can establish a *verifiable* communication. Otherwise, I might as
well say that I am a medium in contact with the ghost of Frank Zappa,
and he thinks you seriously need an enema before you go bonkers!

It's a special bond. It's not something you could explain with science.
My dad thinks I am crazy that I say I can understand Ranmao, and yet
everyone in the family constantly talks to him. A bond between the pet and
its human companion is not something outsiders can understand. If a kid
with communication barrier, I am pretty sure his parents can still
communicate with him with their hearts, if they truly love him. Trust me
on this one, if you listen to your cat meows everyday, you'd learn what
they mean fairly accurately by their different tones of meows. That's how
people learn language in the first place.

<snip>
I can't even use possessive "my" without her attacking me being the "owner"
of my cat.

Well, that _was_ a bit of a strong reaction IMHO.

It was. I do not see the need. But everyone makes mistakes. She probably
feel it was a very personal issue, so she let her emotion take over, which
is understandable.

Everyone who has a cat knows cats own us.

I don't know that. I don't own my wife, my kids or my cat - and neither
of them owns me. We take care of each other - it's a reciprocal
relationship.

Neither do I claim to own my cat. I am okay with my cat owns me, because I
allow it. Otherwise your point stands. I am nobody's Ashi, btw. I like
Ranmao so I am okay with such unequal relationship.

That's why Ranmao is pampered and spoiled, and I paid too much attention
on his emotional needs.

This is utter bull***. You pamper Ranmao because that makes _you_ feel
good, it's instant gratification. Every parent has gone through it, and
most has had to snap out of it. You are not doing the cat a service -
and you do not understand his feelings.

I pamper Ranmao because otherwise he would get angry at me and ignore me,
and I am very insecure. I have no one else except Ranmao. So our
relationship isn't not what you think. Please do not assume you know me
and Ranmao. Do I ever assume I know you and Piis? We hardly even talk to
each other because I am kinda afraid of you, except in this post. How come
you don't accuse me of treating you differently because you are Swedish or
whatever the lable you can think of? Neither do I always think people
treat me differently because I am girly, Asian, a dork or whatever the
labels people gave me. I don't think "the whole world is turning against
me" stuff is helping me feeling happier. I am over with that stage
already.

I know cats want to be fed and my father does that. I take care of
Ranmao's emotional needs and send him to vet when he got sick (he got into
surgery twice). Ranmao is a very moody cat. Georgie isn't so much
(Georgie is a semi-stray cat who lives in our backyard half of the time; I
hate her and she still comes; Ranmao, OTOH, used to be a very jealous cat).
Every cat has their own temperament, if one pays enough attention to
dicover it.

Yes, every cat has their own temperament. Most house cats stay in a
perpetual parent-child bond with their owners, so they do kitten stuff
(eg purring and trampling on soft stuff to get the milk coming - not
that any milk comes, but still they do). Thus they need the secureness a
parent can give.

I hope that helps you understand my relationship with Ranmao. I really am
NOT what you guys presume who I am.

Cat's emotional dimention is much more complex than dogs from
what I've observed.

That is bull***. Dogs just happen to be differently domesticated.

I really should hope you could stop adopting Erimess's anger-filled
language style. It's not what people normally use in their debate, which
is supposedly civil, rational and (ideally) free of emotion.

I did say it's from "what I've observed". That should cue it's not going
to be a scientific fact, but an opinion. I do not like dogs enough to know
their habit too well, though my cousins have them. Dogs' emotion are
rather straightforward from "what I've observed". They would give you a
toy if they want to play, things like that. Cats use negative
reinforcement (like ignore, bite, scratch people if they don't do what they
want) instead. Sometimes it takes time to figure out why a cat is giving
me an ignore treatment (Ranmao really does that, by not responding to my
calls when he can understand his name just fine)

<snip>
There is a history beyond this group? I had a feeling this might be.
Anyway, the rest of us are here, we overheard this public disagreement,
and you have to deal with us too somehow.

It's a sad fact. I guess it's too late for you.

Me personally, or the group? To late for what? If you didn't want a
public disagreement it would have been _so_ easy to take it to email.

I think so too. But we really should bring this trash into a closure.

Usually when people are
disputing, it's my experience to ignore them. Not because I am not caring,
but it'll usually make the things bigger than it ought to be when infected
party is getting bigger.

Well, when the dispute is pointed to the bloody Internet - I generally
assume it is for a _reason_.

Well, everything happens in life has a reason.... This is an Ashiism. ;-)

<snip>
I know you guys had a history of
bad disputes, but I usually tried not to know more than the basics. If I
don't know about it, then this is a happy place to me the way I see it.

The world is not a happier place just because one hides under a pillow.

I guess everyone learns different lesson when they are out of their
depression. That is my lesson.

I wouldn't know, since I have never had a real depression. Still, unless
you are hunted by a bully - hiding is very seldom a solution to
anything.

Well, I've become very risk aversive. Actually I've always been very risk
aversive, it's just it has become even worse. I would take a disadvantage
position just to resolve a problem (which angers my father, since he is the
kind who would fight to his death even if he is wrong). Sometimes taking a
step back is because we want to move forward (another shameless Ashiism
insert ;-D).

From what I've seen, those who are lucky enough to get out of depression
usually see the life much more positively and treat it less seriously. I
guess it's because some of us think the life we now have is somewhat
undeserved. That is, we should have died but we survived, so no matter
what we do, it's a free game, so why not try to make a difference for
ourselves (and others).

I also hate escapism (very much, in fact),
but sometimes, something needs to be ignored for various reasons. Problem
will still exist, no contest about it, but it should not be my business, if
I myself have issues to be dealt with. I'll gladly try to resolve problems
if I don't have so much issues I have to face, or it's within my capacity.

Well, do solve the issues you have to face, that is the point. My issue
is that I can't check the newsgroup without seeing your issues.

It's okay to ignore me. But if you can't, try to learn from my apparent
mistakes. ;-D You don't live my life, but you can correct your own (if
you made a similar mistake which you couldn't see it at first).

It has been a very civil and mature group, and that's the whole reason why
I say I love you guys in the first place.

Now, considering that I have read quite the opposite from you earlier -

Elaborate.

Both me and erimess have already posted very specific examples. You have
claimed not being able to regard online people as friends. That sounds
pretty final to me.

I am not sure what you get that idea. That's very contrary to what most of
my online friends would say. They usually say I am too obsessive with
them, wanting to meet them too eagerly (and afraid once the sense of
mystique is broken, it won't be the same).

Erimess and I had a bad history, and that's why she claimed it that way. I
am not entirely sure why you think like her on this issue, but if it's what
I am thinking, I think I probably have hurt you in the past
unintentionally. I usually don't like strangers, and I remember there was
once you were too friendly with me (during the first week we met) that I
had to back off because I was too horrified. If that gave you the
impression that I do not consider online friends as real friends, then you
should be gladly to know that's very false. In fact, Poly and friends
don't want me to think online friends to be as important as RL friends
(they have their reasons).

I can only read this as emotional blackmail. 'Love' is a verb, it is how
you treat someone - and that is not how you treat us. You treat us as a
dump for your feelings.

That's not true. Perhaps you see my expression as an unwanted
responsibility loading onto you?

Well, why the **** do you post it? In order to be killfiled?

Remember I am "loving' you guys, as a group, not a single individual.

And what is that supposed to mean? That you don't have to pay any
respect to any individual? Or what? Love is a relationship between to
(pretty much) equal parties. You can't have "group love" - that's a
group psychosis, and it's not fun to play around with.

This is a public forum, archived on google and other places, and you can
count on your posts being available for public consumption the next
couple of thousand years. Who exactly do you love? And how does that
love make itself felt? I'm genuinely worried here.

I think your definition of love is limited to "romantic love". I think
that's where the problem stems from. I love you guys as friends. I am not
sure if this is a language issue or not. But one can love their siblings,
parents, friends, etc., but that kind of love is not the same as "two
people fall in love" and want to get some commitment kind of love.

It's not a dump of my feelings.

That is not true.

You are not me.

OTOH, I /do/ come over and talk about my personal issues, but when people
say something like "stop whining", I still whine, but I do know what they
mean and I do back off.

As this shows.

I do not allow people to slander me.

I actually have no expectation from "dumping my feeling."

What does that mean?

That means I do not dump my feeling onto you guys. People who dump their
feelings to others usually expect reaction from people, such as seeking
attention. I say I love you guys, and that's not a dump of my feeling like
you'd like to believe, but an admission that I do enjoy the company of you
guys.

It's just part of my characterization.

So, you are a fictional character now?

Okay, you don't know my history then. I have a real name in RL. Ashi
(short for Ashikaga) is a character in this virtual world. Somewhere along
the line, RL self and Ashi blurred, and Ashi sometimes brings in RL issues
in here. Ashi hates his RL counterpart somewhat, so Ashi sometimes is more
aggressive, more outgoing, more sociable and try to be truer to himself.
As Ashi and his RL self blurred, the experiment somehow brings positive
change to his RL self.

To make things even more confusing, iAshi, unlike Ashi, isn't modeled after
a RL person (despite the diametrically differences between Ashi and RL
self, but Ashi is still human-based; therefore, has human feelings). iAshi
is purely a fictional character invented by Ashi's dearest online friends.

I sometimes also use myself as a mean to deliver a point.

Well, so do we all. But you use a lot more of yourself.

That's because I can't use you guys. :-D

I do intentionally act juvenile
sometimes to make people laugh. It's something I do after I got out of my
depression.

It's annoying, not endearing, when someone acts like half his age.

It's suppose to be annoying! So you wouldn't try to be Just Like ME! :-D
Okay, enough self-hatred.

Life would be so much less fun if we always live squarely.
Make the life the way you want to be, and this is how I want to be.

This is a cliché, and it is not appliable to what you are doing.

Not under this instance certainly. But one day you'll see the
ingeniousness of Ashi through his wacky humour, just like one can spot the
uncanny wisdom of Poly when he looks beyond all the superficiality.
(*giggles*)

I know it's quite painful for me
to work in a place where managers don't recognize people's hard work.

Tough. That's the world for you. Either you take responsibility and grow
as a person, or you don't. Quiting was pretty reasonable, so you're
getting there, but you have to realize that this place was not unique -
and you can't very well quit _every_ job and live at your parents' house
till you die, can you?

I act like a child, but I am not a child.

So quit acting like a child.

Why? Do you so enjoy being an adult?

I graduated in an era where job
is hard to obtain, so quitting my job was a very hard decision that I spent
more than a year to do. I do know the financial implication, but putting
the cost/benefit, it's marginally cheaper to live under parents' scrutiny
(and my parents are very strict), and be very frugal since I now have
financial constraint, than stay at that job. That job has taken a big toll
on both my physical and mental health, so getting out was just a token that
I do love myself. My brother has been telling me to quit for a long time
now when he saw what kind of stuff I was putting myself under. But
everyone sometimes has to bow under money, don't we?

We all need somewhere to live and something to eat, yes. But it's not as
if you moved back to your parents' house when you quit your job, is it?

I didn't move back.... I never could move out, not with that kind of
salary anyways. And my parents are weird, so even after they said they
hate me very much, but they would never let me out, because they still
depend on me to do something for them.

I know what it means to live under frugal circumstances, when my first
kid was born we lived on $1000 a month for half a year, half of which
paid the rent (and prices in Sweden are a bit higher than in the US).

You don't have to explain.

The topic is merely a concession. I know how some of you really hate
reading yet another one of "Ashi's touchy private melodrama" so I put it
there, so people who "love to hate it" can read it :-D, and who don't care
can just skip. My sense of humour is an acquired taste. ;-)

And I have yet to acquire it, if I ever will. Besides, I still think the
subject is manipulative - if recognition is what you want.

Then you don't have to read. Nobody forces you. If you constantly thinks
people are trying to manipulate you, then remember..., try to trust people.
People might start to treat you differently.... Most likely in a favorable
way....

I love my cat very different from how I love you guys. My love toward my
cat is very personal, full-of-attention kind of way.

I'm not sure this is good for either you or Ranmao. He ain't a kitten,
you know.

I know, but lately, he really has been seeking attention. When he was a
kitten, he was very independent and wanted to get away when people try to
hug him. Nowadays it's just the opposite. I can't even put him down to do
my own work without him meows me incessantly and gives me that begging
face. So I think I am only giving him what he wants.

My love toward you
guys is more like friendship kind of love. I enjoy you guys' companion and
love the way you guys are. Some of you are silly, some of you are wise,
some of you can challenge my intellectual capability. Overall, as a group,
this place is filled with top-quality people to be friends with.

Obviously I agree with you there, or I wouldn't come back again and
again.

Everyone is very lovable in their own right, and also very real.

It's not my job to say how long my cat should live.

Well, whose job is it then?

Not my job.

It's much like how I
see euthanasia: if the patient wants to die, it's not my job to play the
god and tell him not to (as much as it might make me feel better, or less
guilty).

Somehow you turn this argument around 180 degrees. How is Ranmao
supposed to communicate to you that he wishes to die? How is he supposed
to even know it? He _isn't_ a sentient being!

Ranmao can't tell me he wants to die. It has nothing to do with this
"sentient" being theory (human beings enjoy make these artificial stuff to
distinguish them from other kinds...). It's an analogy, but if you don't
see the connection, let it drop. It's not that important anyways.

I can't control my cat's life, but I have a duty to give Ranmao a
full life since he is a family member.

Define 'full life'. AFAICT cats are the most hygienically inclined
animals (humans included), and when a cat can't do stuff at the right
place - it is really old and really sick.

Ranmao recently has been losing his mind and do his stuff in inappropriate
places, so maybe he has reached that point....

Full of life..., well, obviously it's different among humans and other
animals. Even among human beings, like the debate Hawkie and I were
having, we don't even have the same definition on lifelong goals. I am
assuming Ranmao wants a worry-free life. That's all I can provide for him.
the rest he has to do it himself.

I think you are thinking I am Dorian Gray or something from what you've
written....

I don't know about Dorian Gray.

Dorian Gray is a narcissus person who fell in love of his own portrait.

Both of you and Erimess misread my mind and act as if your
assumption is correct.

I don't read minds, all I have are your posts.

All I have are your (your and Erimess's) posts too. Misunderstanding
occurs.

I do not make obvious mistakes. I also try to
avoid projection. But how can you judge me when you know very little about
me, and even less about my cat?

Considering that you don't by any standards post a little, not even by
Moa standards, I can claim to have read a lot by you. And unless what
you write is complete and utter fiction, it does say something about you
(actually it does even if it is fiction, but if it is - I have
misinterpreted it).

You can learn about me if you read my posts right, but very little of them
tell people directly what I am like. Nowadays I usually just post some
rather random slapstick posts that serve the purpose of pure entertainment.
You really can't learn much about me from those. To really learn who I am,
you'd have to go read posts that are from several years ago when I was much
more open about my feelings. Even with those, you'd still have to do some
connect two together with two type of work. Why would you or anyone do
that much to learn about me? I am very unimportant, but I would really be
flattered if you guys can understand my points I try to deliver with each
post I wrote.

BTW, as much as I told you guys about my life, it's still a very small part
of me that I feel okay to reveal. I am actually a very private person.
And it's probably my fault that I do not give a full detail of myself (and
yet tease you guys with all the descriptive stuffs about me, giving you a
false sense of knowing me...), and usually that can cause much mistrust.

I would say that part of the problem is that you go into way too much
detail.

Unfortunately that's what it takes if I aspired to be a very successful
financial manager. Everything must be predicted before it actually
happens.

It's not intentional, and I am truly sorry I really can't tell you guys
everything about myself (because I don't feel comfortable; just like my
pre-RGCUD history, it's something to be forgotten).

It's not a question of being forgotten. It's is a question of this being
a public games newsgroup.

So do you usually play as a male avatar or a female avatar? :-D

--
Ashikaga a28
.