Re: How do I win from here?

On Mar 11, 8:22 am, ttk5...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Maybe
someone can "view" the game, and tell us
what the next move was?

That is quite irrelevant to a correct evaluation of the position.

Of course, a man who cannot set up the
correct position would think that.

The reason I want to know is that White
has an obligation to make only *legal*
moves.


The OP was not asking "What stupid moves should I wish my opponent
will make?", yet that is really the only kind of answer you have
provided.

To the contrary, this is precisely the kind
of thing which would answer the original
question. One example is that Black must
not trade Rooks, unless his King can seize
the /distant opposition/ (God help us!) or if
his King was foolishly allowed to advance.


given that the
white king is on the second rank and the black rook on the fourth, in
the given position.

Are you *sure* you now have the "given
position" set up right this time?


Black plays, say, 1...Rc3, and the white king is
likely to stay on his two back ranks indefinitely.

No. White's best tries include advancing
the King, even if he can be driven back or
forced to retreat. (This is because the
Rook simply can't do what a King can do
in close quarters. The Rook is superior
in exerting influence /from afar/.)


Then please demonstrate a method by which, after 1...Rc3, White can
advance his king beyond the second rank without allowing an exchange
of rooks that leaves a drawn position.

I cannot demonstrate a forced win here,
because the position is a theoretical draw;
however, I have already discussed the
fact that Jose Capablanca routinely won
theoretically-drawn positions with all the
pawns on one side and one Rook apiece.
I could be mistaken, but in general his
opposition were often described as chess
"masters", perhaps meaning local
masters, as opposed to international
ones.

It requires a swindle; in other words, the
opponent must defend poorly, or at least
make one crucial blunder. Here, that
would include trading Rooks at the wrong
time, or allowing the White King to
approach and not making him pay dearly
by in turn winning his base pawn.

I note that, even having set up the wrong
position, you came up with Fritz' move,
....Rc3. Am I expected to defeat Fritz-- a
player twice my size?

In your original answer -- the one I took
exception to -- you indicated that it was
not known who was on move; to this I will
add that the question itself implied that
the superior player -- the one trying to
win -- ought to be on move, else how can
we tell him what he should do next?

Thus, my research assumed that the
actual position in the link had White on
move, and I was surprised to find that we
were just one tempo away from a forced
win *if* Black traded Rooks. Clicking on
"Black to move", I found that he often had
just one way to draw and a multitude of
table-base-perfect losses, but clicking
"White to move" was a different story:
here it was necessary for the player of
the Black pieces to defend accurately,
like a computer. (Those guys weren't
using Fritz, were they?)


The trouble here is not that
White's King cannot move around;

You seem to have changed your tune. Earlier you said a key to
victory was for White to advance his king.

You are confused. Read it again, s-l-o-w-l-y.
(The only inconsistency lies in your ability to
set up the correct position.)


it is
that White's Rook cannot be utilized to
defend the base pawn without becoming
inactive; that, and the fact that if Black's
Rook keeps the checking distance, it
can harry the White King at will with
impunity.

In other words, there is no way White can win against even modestly
competent play.

At the master level, yes. At Yahoo!, I
suspect "reasonably competent" has a
very different meaning: not often hanging
pieces outright. Just look at the original
question: "how do I win this?"; does this
not tell us that the asker is a weak player,
and his opponent has somehow managed
to lose a pawn to him? These are no
Masters, nor even Experts, nor Class A
players, my friend; all things are possible!
Most tournament players I know would
never ask such a question; Class B or C
players would already know the answer,
or at least /think/ they know.


(Things are so much simpler
with Queens, don't you know, because
unlike with a Rook, the base pawn can
be sacrificed in return for a two-man
mating attack!)

Yes, and things are so much simpler in a knife fight if someone
hands you an AK-47.

Semi-automatics have a tendency to
jam. I would prefer a flamethrower,
since even if it were to jam, the enemy
would be too busy *running away* to
notice!


It would be so much simpler finding a drink in the
Sahara if it was dotted with lakes like Minnesota.

Camels are the answer; they know where
the water is hiding, and unlike your Yugo car,
can travel many miles without water. Your
problem is that you go someplace like /that/,
expecting to find the one thing it lacks! I go
there to get away from it all.


It would have been
so much simpler for General Lee at Gettysburg if the Union Army had
recruited chickens instead of men.

What would he feed them? Men are dumb
animals who can live on just about anything,
and what's more, they have hands in which
can be carried guns and stuff. Chickens
have no hands.


An exchange of
rooks in such a situation leaves the black king in fine position to
deal with the white pawns, for example 2.Re3 Rxe3 3.Kxe3 Ke5 and it's
a dead draw.

Once again, you have analyzed the
**wrong position**.

No, I just transcribed one move incorrectly

I see; you are one of those guys who has,
shall I say, difficulties in admitting even the
smallest mistake. This is the second time
I have found you to be giving "analysis" of
the wrong position, due to carelessness.


hitting "e" instead of
"f". Here is the sequence I had in mind:

1... Rc3 2. Re3 Rxe3 3. Kxe3 Kf5 4. Kf3 Ke5 -- Now it's a dead draw

With Black on move, I already stated that
things are a lot tougher. The reason is that
the White King can be cut off and Rook
exchanges lead to a drawable K & p ending.

Yet even with White to move, my computer
just goes 'round and 'round in circles, trying
not to repeat the position. That is definitely
*not* the approach chosen by GM Jose
Capablanca in his now-famous unjust wins!
In order to pull off a swindle, you have to get
creative.


for example 5. g4 hxg4+ 6. Kxg4 Kf6 7. h5 Kg7 etc. If White does not
advance his pawn, the kings just shuffle back and forth ad infinitum.

Obviously, any trade at g4 will leave the
worst kind of pawns: ratpackers, or Rook-
pawns, which is nearly hopeless.


The graphic link at
the top of this thread shows the Black
King cannot reach the e5 square in
one move, since it sits on g6.

See above correction.

I see; so now you want the credit for
correcting your own mistake! Sorry, but
I got there first.


In the original post, it was not stated
who was on-move, and the question
itself ,"how do I win this", implied it was
White to move (why ask how you can
win, if you are behind?).

And why try to answer that question with magical thinking, rather
than chess logic?

"Logic" is why I jumped in, for you went
too far in stating that "the best that could
be hoped for" was the Rook-pawn scenario.

In my opinion, that is just about the exact
opposite of the truth. Your shallow approach
is the reason I felt compelled to make any
correction; had you given the poor chap a
better answer, I would have left it alone, as
I did with the recent "Monkee" thread. Don't
take my word for it-- check it for yourself; you
will say "I'm a believer".


-- help bot


P.S.: I can't beat Fritz, but I will gladly
demonstrate how to win this at GetClub.




.

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