Re: Draw appreciation at Corus 2008


"Larry Tapper" <larry_tapper@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:ae128b8b-e5d9-4eb5-8364-29a8e1883f7b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jan 28, 4:54 pm, "David Kane" <davidek...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
David Kane writes:

DK> The Corus public prize voting provides some real world evidence.
It shows us that apparently those high quality Rook + f pawn
+ h pawn draws, really *don't* qualify as elegant or interesting
to actual chessplayers, or at least they are so rare that they
don't earn many votes.

LT>But here you miss the point of the only specific example I mentioned.
The game Kramnik-Aronian actually _was_ a contender for the day's
public prize, with 37% of the vote. But it was a win for Kramnik only
because Aronian faltered in the endgame after move 100! If Aronian had
held the draw, would the game as a whole have been less "elegant or
interesting"? Of course not. In my view, the game would actually have
been more interesting, because after all the tactical fireworks, we'd
also have gotten, as a bonus, an example of heroic endgame defense.


DK>I didn't really miss your point. But I think you are wrong. If Kramnik-
Aronian had been drawn, would it have received more votes, or fewer
votes? We don't know, but my guess is fewer. Why, because other similar
games that might have shown proper defense and ended in draws
didn't get many votes. You suggested that this was a preference for
"successful attack over successful defense". I think that might be
a factor, but I (and the voters, apparently) also believe that decisivity
itself is a factor. Draws are just not as satisfying as a competitive result.

LT>Your post caught my eye because one of my favorite pastimes is
following the action closely in top GM tournaments. I caught the Corus
games whenever I could, and I can report that were several draws in
that event that earned my rapt attention from start to finish. For
example, Radjabov, playing white against Topalov, outplayed him
beautifully in a queenless middlegame with all sorts of striking
tactical nuances. But Topalov is a wily and tireless defender, so
Radjabov was unable to score the full point an exchange for a pawn
ahead.

DK>I suspect you are paying far more attention to the games than the
average Corus voter. And that really is my point. The chessgames
most chessplayers like are decisive. While I certainly do not doubt
that your appreciation of these games is genuine, and I can share
in that appreciation at some level myself, it is useful to have a
broader understanding of chess' appeal. I think that you are too
good and too serious to be typical.

LT>Another example was Gelfand's draw with black against Kramnik. Kramnik
reached the kind of position in the early middlegame that he would
typically be able to win with ease --- slightly more active rooks,
control of c6 with a knight prepared to go there. But Gelfand defended
very precisely, taking skillful advantage of the possibility of
offering repeated exchange sacrifices because Kramnik could not afford
to open up the long diagonal. So, a hard-fought draw.

DK>Again, I don't really have anything against the hard fought draw.
I was merely pointing out that the voting data does not support that
this type of game is highly appreciated. And, of course, not all of the
draws *were* hard fought, were they?

LT>A weaker player than Gelfand could easily have given Kramnik the
opportunity to finish off the game with an elegant combination,
thereby winning the public prize perhaps. Would this have been better
for chess? From a marketing point of view, maybe so. But few of us
are attracted to chess because of its potential marketability!

DK>As usual, you make a good case. But at some level I do believe
that making chess more marketable would benefit the game, including
its existing players. The Corus public prize voting gives us at
least a small amount of data that can be used for that purpose.



.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Draw appreciation at Corus 2008
    ... The recently concluded Corus 2008 is one of the chess world's premier events. ... If one assumes an equal number of votes ... as likely to receive votes as draws. ... fans were invited to vote on their favorite play of each game. ...
    (rec.games.chess.misc)
  • Re: Plur
    ... There are four main reasons why the possibility of draws doesn't ... only necesary: A game without ... whether perfect play would result in a draw, ... more and more frequent as the players skill grows. ...
    (rec.games.abstract)
  • Re: Problem with draws
    ... chess buff should dislike _all_ draws. ... At the top levels, there are many players now (for example Anand, ... But why start looking at this point in the game? ...
    (rec.games.chess.politics)
  • Re: Hand discussion: Controlling the pot
    ... big stack in the game, in the hand in question I pick-up KK from the ... Now that's not a great flop for Kings against three opponents, ... of any gutshot draws (I know in this game that open-ended draws will ... I bet £50 into a £65 pot, ...
    (rec.gambling.poker)
  • Re: Draw appreciation at Corus 2008
    ... One of its features is the 250 Euro "Public Prize" awarded for "the most elegant ... drawn games received votes in just 3 rounds. ... fans were invited to vote on their favorite play of each game. ...
    (rec.games.chess.misc)