Re: Too many rungs on the notrump ladder! (Kokish/strong club)

On Apr 18, 1:39 pm, judyorcarl <judyorc...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:06 pm, Douglas Newlands <douglas.newla...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:





judyorcarl wrote:
On Apr 17, 9:00 pm, Douglas Newlands <douglas.newla...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
judyorcarl wrote:
On Apr 17, 12:43 am, Douglas Newlands <douglas.newla...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Rob Morris wrote:
Playing Kokish over a strong club (a 1H relay showing hearts or a
balanced hand), we have an enourmous number of rungs on our notrump
ladder. Every level of notrumps can be bid with or without going through
Kokish, *and* we're playing the 2NT opening as strong and balanced.
Even playing 2-point ranges we seem to have too many rungs on our
notrump ladder. I don't really see the need to distinguish, say, between
26-27 balanced and 28+ balanced, so I'm soliciting for ideas of
something else to do with the 2NT opening.
- weak with both minors. Do people who play this think it gains?
- have two bids to show 21-22 but have one of them promise a 5-card suit
and one deny it. Some Benji Acol players do this but I'm not convinced
it's a great idea.
- something else to shore up a weakness elsewhere in the Precision
structure?
Anyone got anything good?
No, but I have an odd observation. I played with an occasional partner
on Thursday who wanted to play 21-22 2NT and on particular set of
opps did this too. The flat 20hcp hand occured no less than 4 times.
Partner opened two of them with 1 minor; one was just a bad 3NT that the
  field was in but the other got an overcall which sufficiently directed
the defence to beat 3N (the opening leader had H Kxx  D KQ9xx) and the
heart overcall enabled them to beat the 3N which would have made without
the heart lead.
My LHO got a 20hcp flat hand, partner a 19 hcp flat hand (including
D AKQxx), RHO got a flat 1 count and I got 4=3=3=3 with the rest of the
points. :(
The auction proceeded
(1C)  X   (P)   1S
(2N)  X   AP        and with partner starting with 5 diamond winners
                this was easy to beat. BUt if it had been opened 2N
I don't think we would have seen the double (anyone ever seen one?)
The last one I got and I just opened 2N prepared to say I can't count.
It seems that there is actually some advantage in not taking 2 rounds
to express this hand type. I also think that 2 point ranges are too
much of an affectation and don't have enough upside since more hands
have to start at the 1m level.
Doug,
Tas- Hide quoted text -
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Well, yes, if you open 2NT with 20, you will make some contracts you
would lose if RHO had a chance to bid.
But the same would be true if you open 2NT with 19, or 18, ....
But in each case, you will reach incrementally more contracts whose
only play is to hope for a defensive revoke.  Big deal.
Bit of a strawman this argument.
20-22 is the classic range and is what I am suggesting - not ever
decreasing values.

The unavoidable fact, though, is that opening 2NT preempts your own
side's chances of reaching slams or superior games.
Perhaps, but usuall, if you open 1m, you have to jump next round, still
taking away a lot of space.
The key to a lot of slam bidding is being able to agree a major at the 3
level forcingly and 1C-1D-2N or the like doesn't make that easy
and even if it goes 1C-1H and you have a fit, you are fine if 3H next is
FG but one has to ask how you make an invite.
The other problem is knowing whether opener is showing a genuine 2
suiter and bidding on playing value or has an enormous flat hand.
I'm not saying one method is absolutely better but I generally play
with a strong 2N unless playing strong club.

Also see Ron/Players comment on 2NT for weak minors - it's not a scary
preempt.

Doug,
Tas- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text

But the jump comes *after* opener has shown his suit.

If opener has, say AKQx of clubs, and responder has, say 10xxxx, the
2NT opening rates to lose the club slam, as it did for Deas-Palmer a
year or so ago when they desperately needed imps.

I am not familiar with this example but certainly bidding slams in
minors after a 2N opener needs sophisticated methods. I would be
surprised that they did not. What went wrong in the auction?
The player with 10xxxx wrote off a slam try because of the bad suit?
Seems understandable.

I may be missing the point of what you say, but there is a slam bonus
for the minors, too.

Yes, and you need it agreed forcingly by 4m and you need agreed methods
so that the unlimited player has the next bid at this point and that's
not always easy.

I don't really think we are far apart here - I was just observing that
if the auction has started 1A-1B and you haven't found the fit, the
required leap to show strength has problems for the rest of the auction
especially if you have opened a short minor. If you find the fit,
responder has the problem that you can have 2 rather different hand
types unless you have sophisticated methods.

Doug,
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- Show quoted text -

Dealer had

A954; A42; J; 107532

and third hand had

Q6; KQ53; A102; AKQ9

At both tables, the auction was

P - 2NT; 3C - 3H; 3NT - P.

This was in the final seesion of the 2008 women's team trials, and one
of the teams needed lots of imps in a hurry.

My first reaction was to blame the weaker hand's conservatism (or
matchpointism).

But an occasional partner pointed out that the big hand should see the
(possible) problem coming and picked an auction that named clubs.

Carl

Carl,

if the hands had been

9542
A42
J7532
T


Q6
KQ53
A102
AKQ9

Would it really be a good idea to bid 4c over 3nt?

One of the biggest advantages of Precision over SA is when responder
has values but not enough to force to slam and cannot locate a fit via
Stayman. (That's why, in part, I've always had an admiration for
Baron 3c over Stayman before Puppet-stayman came into vogue.) Since
responder cannot tell opener whether he has 5 points or 9-10 points,
opener never knows. And I agree with responder's decision not to risk
a natural 4c over opener's 3h response to Stayman.

While Precision has its defects, a sequence starting 1c 1d 2nt with
the second set of hands will stop in game, while the sequence starting
1c positive in clubs will at least have a chance to get to slam with
the first set. My auction:

1c 1h
1s 2c
2d 3h
4c 4s
6c all pass

1h = positive in either black suit
1s = relay
2c = clubs, minimum in most cases
2d = relay
3h = spades, low shortness and 5431 shape, therefore exactly 4=3=1=5
shape and a minimum hand
4c = key card asking in the lowest 3+ card suit, hence clubs.
4s = 2 key cards, no QC
6c = to play. responder cannot also have the KS and still rebid 2c
only.

If opener wanted to sign off, he would rebid 3s over 3h as a
terminator puppet. If he wanted to sign off in 3nt but show extras,
he could rebid 3nt over 3h giving responder the option of moving
forward (but with a known minimum responder would have to have
something like

Jxxx
xxx
x
AKQxx

to justify a further move).

Henrysun909
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Too many rungs on the notrump ladder! (Kokish/strong club)
    ... Every level of notrumps can be bid with or without going through ... The key to a lot of slam bidding is being able to agree a major at the 3 ... problem coming and picked an auction that named clubs. ... One of the biggest advantages of Precision over SA is when responder ...
    (rec.games.bridge)
  • Re: idea for a (possibly) new convention
    ... Responder with genuine clubs, a max 1NT, and spade tolerance can ... bid 4C, finding perhaps a better game or a slam when opener has good ... of the opened suit = artificial, a jump shit rebid in clubs. ...
    (rec.games.bridge)
  • Re: Bad Luck or Bad Decisions?
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    (rec.games.bridge)
  • Re: idea for a (possibly) new convention
    ... Responder with genuine clubs, a max 1NT, and spade tolerance can ... bid 4C, finding perhaps a better game or a slam when opener has good ...
    (rec.games.bridge)
  • Re: Legal query
    ... auction itself reveals that partner has forgotten the agreement. ... Hence, if 5d is meaningless, West should be allowed to bid 5h. ... In this case, however, the auction probably made it clear what had ... The reader's question is whether responder is allowed to correct to ...
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