Re: The Full Extent of the Disaster

On 6/11/10 7:22 PM, Alim Nassor wrote:
On Jun 11, 10:01 pm, johnny_t<nobod...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 6/11/10 6:41 PM, Alim Nassor wrote:





On Jun 11, 8:50 pm, johnny_t<nobod...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 6/9/10 8:04 PM, Alim Nassor wrote:

Also solar and wind both require redundant fossil fuel generation.
Picture a new development of houses, say 2000 houses with the
associated retail, commercial etc. You are going to power it all with
solar. Can't be done, without also having the same amount of fossil
fuel generating capacity as backup for when the sun doesn't shine.
Solar will never be a major player until some form of mega battery or
capacitive type storage can be developed. I'm not sure it can be.

Kinetic battery. Like winding up a weight. Moving water uphill,
compressing air. There are a bunch of different kinds. When dealing
with exactly your type of scenario, kinetic batteries work well.

Yeah, that's why they are in use all over the world powering thousands
of homes and businesses. Oh, wait......

Oh, wait...

Kinetic batteries are in use at almost all hydroelectric dams, in one
form or another. Often electrical generation has to happen at times or
amounts where they are not being used. This isn't true for steam
generation facilities (coal, natural gas, oil, diesel or nuclear), where
you literally throttle product on need.

But hydroelectric, solar, and wind can and do use kinetic batteries to
store energy for use at high demand/low creation times. In Washington,
we know this, cuz we get to go on all the Dam Tours and stuff...

Happens all over the world powering thousands of homes and businesses...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


http://www.mpoweruk.com/alternatives.htm

The flywheel provides power during period between the loss of utility
supplied power and either the return of utility power or the start of
a sufficient back-up power system (i.e., diesel generator). Flywheels
can discharge at 100 kilowatts (kW) for 15 seconds and recharge
immediately at the same rate, providing 1-30 seconds of ride-through
time. Back-up generators are typically online within 5-20 seconds.

So they can provide power for 1 to 30 seconds. Not much use as an
actual power source.


They usually don't use flywheels. Often it is pumped water. A lot of it. The pumps use electricity one way, generate electricity another way.

Flywheels are used for reasonably short term usuage, like at hospitals. They provide energy for a very short period of time, while other systems come back online. This is for short term use for facilities that are too large to use batteries as backups.

The nice thing about flywheels, is that they take very little energy to keep spinning, and so aren't the continual drain and deterioration of conventional battery systems. And they can be made pretty big.

For very small usage, you can get battery backed up supplies. But it is for very short term use.

There are newer technologies...

For Instance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage


But this is what is more commonly used with hydroelectric. Because there is a lot of water nearby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity

The term kinetic battery is to describe a device that is powered by electricity, the electrical energy then gets converted to potential energy using some or another method that can store a lot. And then the potential energy is released to create electricity.

This is done in various different ways.

Right now, the way that solar and wind is integrated with the grid, is that it provides extra energy during the daytime, when it is used, with excess supply provided by regular sources. This provides a smoother and more reactive grid.

During the evening, coincidently enough, power requirements actually go down. And right now they go down more than is lost by Solar no longer creating electricity. This is all a good thing.

This will change, and one of the ways that this will change is with creating enough solar power that it can store energy off in the day and use it at night. These kinds of kinetic systems can work for that, as they are the right size for this level of generation.

For smaller needs, like a single home, conventional electrical batteries would probably suffice, however, there have been solutions with both compressed air, and watertanking that work for very small needs, and both are cheaper run and maintain, than conventional batteries. However they tend to be MUCH bigger and more expensive to install, especially to retrofit to a house.

But I really don't believe that we are moving to an off the grid system. We are largely going to be a grid system, if anything with extra production from small generation.

The really nasty thing, is that people are today getting a free ride from taxpayers and rate payers with people that "sell" back energy to the grid.

These little producers cannot be accurately accounted for, at that level, and the high liklihood is all the energy that we pay for in these systems are just being sent to ground as not being useful. So they think they are doing good, but the rate payers are just paying for their solar panels.

Once the population of these things gets large enough and predictable enough, the grids will actually start to depend on them for a bit, and will likely use some percentage of their generation. But right now, most assuredly it is being grounded, or you're having brownouts. I am sure that it is being grounded.

Which is why it would be nice to have in home energy storage of somesort, then it would actually be used, and taxpayers wouldn't be paying for something that it is not getting.

--
If it doesn't fit on a bumper
sticker, Republicans can't un

Clave in RGP
.

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