Re: OT: Can South Central LA Schools be saved?

On Feb 21, 7:13 pm, ruylopez <43087...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Feb 21 2008 12:40 PM, Tim Norfolk wrote:



I am a professor of mathematics at a state university in the US. A
recent study here showed that only 15% of recent high school graduates
are ready for college-level mathematics, which usually means a course
called 'College Algebra'. This course covers less than I learned in
grades 7 and 8 (in a non-selective Army school in Cyprus). The O-level
exam that I took covered most of Calculus I and Calculus II, plus
quite a lot of the traditional analytical geometry that is no longer
taught at all (except in multi-variate Calculus). We have become so
bad that 10% or more of our freshmen test at 3rd- or 4th-grade in
mathematics, another 15% at 5th-grade, another 15% at 6th-grade, and
at least another 20% have not mastered Algebra I, which is now called
'Intermediate Algebra' at many universities.

Google Groups appears to have eaten my reply, so I'll try and remember
what I wrote.

The short summary is that the system that we have now isn't working in
any real sense. We graduate far too many people at high cost with the
illusion that they have been educated.


You have suggested our "performance" would improve if we moved to the system
formally used in England that resulted, or goaled for, 5-10% of kids moving on
to college. Obviously, far more than that go to college here in the USA. When
you are looking at only the worst of these students, and comparing them to
levels you attribute to the top 5-10% elsewhere, you're not making a valid
comparison.

Yes, there are certainly some kids that get to college here without the ability
to do algebra. That's too bad. Some people really do just suck at math,
although they may have a high aptitude in other areas. It sounds like these are
the kids you are teaching. But if these are kids that, under the system you
referred to before, wouldn't even be in college at all, does that mean we're
doing so poorly? Is it wrong to at least attempt to improve their level of
knowledge?

I took algebra in the eighth grade, and the kids one year below me at my school
took it in the seventh, because of a change in the philosophy. We were in an
accelerated program, yes, but by the end of high school I was done with Calc I
as were many math-capable students who had never been in the accelarated
programs. I don't believe, by and large, kids in the USA are held back from
doing this sort of thing if they are capable of doing it.

I will guess that it's been a while. I know of many children,
including my own, who are prevented by their teachers from learning
beyond what they are 'supposed to' at their level. In addition, there
are sad examples of teachers actually persecuting students who want to
know 'why'. This is in addition to the popular culture, which not very
gently tells children not to stand out by being 'smart'. As I said
above, in our area, high school counsellors routinely discourage
students from taking more math than they have to, since it might ruin
their GPA's, and they can 'catch up in college'. In the more affluent
districts, the students take lots of AP courses to pad their resumes
for college, but strangely choose not to actually take the tests. It's
a mantra of parents here that my child 'doesn't test well'.


I'm sure I went to a pretty good public school system and others probably didn't
have as many opportunities to move ahead as I did. And hell, even I feel like
they could have done more for me. But I think you are overstating the case that
we are so bad at math and specifically I don't think comparing our worst college
students in the subject to a system that only sends 5-10% of all students to
college sheds light on anything.

_______________________________________________________________
The Largest Online Poker Community -http://www.recpoker.com

Say that we send 50% to higher education (in Ohio it's closer to 35%),
and that the old English system used to send 5%. Then, the top 10%
(basically those ready for true college-level courses) should be
comparable. But they aren't as well prepared, and no amount of
equivocation will change that.

In terms of your contention that some people don't do well in math,
but deserve an education: I have heard this many times, and it sounds
convincing. However:

a) It has been verified by many studies that the best predictor of
college success, regardless of major, is grades in college-level
mathematics.
b) Under the old system that I described (which would be politically
infeasible here), once a student had their math O-level at age 16,
they could take A-levels and degrees in homeopathic animal husbandry,
or whatever, without ever taking another mathematics or science course
again. Here, most universities (but not most private schools, who
can't afford to fail students) often insist that these poor souls
grind through 2-3 semesters of mathematics and science that they hate
and can't understand. It's like to old British philosophy in the
Empire: if the locals can't understand you, just repeat yourself,
slowly and loudly.

I have tried for 30 years to help students, and will continue until
I'm brain-dead. I have come to the conclusion that, not only won't I
find the magic spell that will motivate and enable every student to
learn, but that no-one else has either. Most educational reforms
simply hide the failures of the last ones.

For those regular readers of this forum who have made it this far,
consider the poker table, and the many players you know who are
terrible, yet continue to play, even when they can't afford it. If
such a player asked you for help, would they a) understand your
explanations and b) follow your advice? Bear in mind that it matters
to them whether they lose, so they are motivated, and that, unlike
education, they generally actually want to be there.
.

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