Re: "Serious" NLHE hand for discussion

On Jan 9 2008 1:40 PM, FellKnight wrote:

If he gets 4 callers and then the BB lead-jams on the turn, yes, folding
is a no-brainer. Do you disagree?

If the BB led again, sure. What happens when the BB now checks a deuce
turn? Are we betting? Are we check-folding?

That's the thing, there's so many permutations of hands and actions here
that you can sit there and play these games all day. It really leads to
the question of how it all adds up.

As opposed to your scenario where the opponents' hands are perfect in that
KK is still actually ahead?

a) KK's ahead in your 'if Morph's got 44' situation too
b) it's obviously the facetious response to play the results game to prove
a point.


Nothing says that we need to play this KK to the bitter end as UTG.

Right, which begs the question...why are we calling? It's basically a
prayer call....we're praying that the hand ranges break right for us to
keep going. The thing is we have no idea what's actually calling behind
us, so we're in a guessing game on the turn.

The only thing a call seems do is let us be sure we're heads up with the
BB before we try to break what we perceive to be an inferior hand.


Which is another reason why Adam should push. It's harder to fold getting
the pot odds on the flop when Adam *could* be going nuts with a KQ or
whatever here.

Yes, I readily acknowledge we might get stuck if Adam goes nuts with a
wide range.
But that's the thing, if he's going nuts behind a bet and a raise, he's
surely going nuts behind a bet and call, no? So how are we getting away
from KK then?

The only way is the exact action that happened, that Morphy puts in a
small enough raise than the BB can push and reopen the action, which
leaves UTG stuck because UTG+1 overcalled and could easily be trapping
himself.

Things broke perfect for your argument. They're not always going to
break perfect, that's basically my point.



It puts us in the position of having to make a very tough decision in a big
pot.

I still don't see how we have easy decisions by calling. They only come
if everybody folds, or everybdoy calls. Unfortunately, these are
probably the exceptions.

We don't want to be the one forced to tough decisions (especially in a
relatively soft Bodog 2/3 NL game), we want our opponents to be making the
tough decisions (more chances that they make a mistake and lose a big pot).

Then just fold it. You had a plan pre-flop, it failed, move on. It
can't cost you that much equity given all the possible scenarios.

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