Re: OT: The Japs wanted to surrender.

"ruylopez"

Ruy, you need to look carefully at what you "believe" and see if it makes
any sense at all. You are ascribing real evil to many people. I can
only
hope that you will see what you are saying and rethink it.


I am not sure what to believe about this. I am not sure what "evil" is,
much
less the difference between its "real" and unreal forms. Do you not think
there
were those that wanted revenge for Pearl Harbor? That wanted to not just
beat
the Japanese, but humiliate them completely?


Of course there were ... and are. There are still "those" that spit when
someone says Toyota. However, we are not talking about "them."


It was a complicated decision that had many factors. Including stuff like
that,
and stuff like racism. I cannot see how you are going to convince me that
those
were not part of the equation at least on some level.


Why would I try. Everything is included in everything at some level. Gee
whiz, ruy, why go off on that tangent.


You accuse me of simplifying but you would pretend no one in the military
wanted
to humiliate and embarass the Japanese into unconditional surrender. Come
on.
What about the Secretary of State opposing any "deals" with Japan? I don't
think you can really believe this was no factor yourself.


Again, ruy, you are a long way from discussing the original questions. If
you think that the Americans that fought all the way to Okinawa were just
being slaughtered for the reasons you give, I cannot continue to attempt
rational conversation. All the absolutes have just gotten too much in the
way. No one ... any deal ... it just does not make any sense.


I fail
to see how simple addition of a worldwide, centuries old Satanic
conspiracy by
Popinjay somehow strengthens his opinion relative to mine. Seems like a
clever
divisive tactic but I don't follow you.


Paul believes in some of the things he posts and does not believe in many
of
the other things that he posts. Saying that there is a world wide
conspiricy to do whatever is done is a much stronger view than to just
say,
"I just don't buy it" ... whatever "it" might be. Paul thinks our
government brought down the WTC on 9/11 ... he posts a lot of support for
his belief. I think he is an interesting person for the most part. You
are
young and have expressed an interest in many things. You have obviously
read more deeply in some areas and have yet to explore many others. I
enjoy
your posts and hope that you will continue to sift through all of the
information that you will receive during your lifetime.

Okay but Paul's claim is borderline ridiculous in this case, in my
opinion. Yet
my suggesting that it was about "containment" (only the entire guiding
principle
of our foreign policy throughout the next part of the century) is a
"completely
ridiculous" subsitition. Huh? I don't think he is the only one who does
not
always believe what they post.


I was joking about Paul, making real sense. I was comparing his non-sense
to yours. You were not in any way talking about "containment" until this
very moment. If you want to talk about containment, we can.


Do you not think the Atom bomb was going to be invented by someone, at
some
time? Did the CFR control the progress physics and the other sciences were
making all over the world? Or didn't it just happen..? The scientists
themselves who first realized this sort of reaction was possible instantly
thought of its implications in war. Of course it was going to happen. If
we
hadn't used them, might someone else have by now? I don't know, but I
don't
think the answer is an automatic no.


I have no idea what you are talking about. Both the Germans and the
Japanese had active bomb development programs. I know that they both would
have been able to make a workable bomb if given more time.


I don't know what "evil" is and I don't think I believe in any such thing.
But
I know that in one instant we killed something like 200,000 completely
innocent
civilians in Hiroshima. I've been there, I always found it interesting and
historically skewed. I have a hard time inventing any justification for
that.
When a few thousand die in the WTC the world is supposed to throw us their
tears
and money and armies in sympathy yet the incineration of "Japs", orders of
magnitudes larger, is considered to be fully justified by saving us the
trouble
of invasion.


I think over 150000 were killed on Okinawa. Millions might have been killed
in a full invasion of Japan. For you to say that the bombs were used for
embarrassment and not to save American (and innocent Japanese) lives is just
uninformed. Such a scenario requires a complete disregard for the evidence.


So I want the case for invasion to be pretty damn strong. I don't think it
is.

The case for invasion was overwhelming ... it is a good thing that it was
not necessary. If the bombs had been ready before Okinawa, a few hundred
thousand lives might have been saved as well.


.

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