Re: A woman's right to choose

"Pepe Papon"

No, calling them babies is being dishonest, because they're actually
fetuses. Thanks for playing, though.

I love these word games. "Exactly" when does a fetus become a baby? (I
pretermit for the moment the future questions of what is a "baby" and what
is a "human being" and many more that will become important as soon as you
give the unambiguous method for choosing exactly when one word is proper
and
another is not. There will be many more words to define as we go along.
Only then will we be able to begin the proper discussion of other more
important concepts ... as soon as we define what we mean by the word
concept
in each of those scenarios ... as soon as we define what we mean by the
word
scenario ... )

That's exactly the point. The pro-lifers play word games when they
accuse por-choicers of "killing babies" and "murder". Their
rhetoric presupposes that their definition of "baby" is the actual,
factual definition, which, of course, it's not.


The word game is played both ways and you are playing right along. You are
correct in that it is certainly disingenuous to use the word "baby" for a
fertilized egg in this context ... but it is just as disingenuous (and done
for the same reasons) to call a full term infant human being "just a fetus"
for the purpose of dehumanizing it.


They claim that an egg becomes a baby at the moment of conception, and
they allow for no disagreement with this definition of "baby".
However, it's clear that their are other possible points in
development where the transition could be made. Two that come to mind
are: 1) the moment the fetus attains consciousness and 2) the moment
the fetus attains the ability to survive outside the womb.


Actually, most pro-life (anti-abortion) people usually say that the
"conception" is the time that the formerly live cells become a different
sort of conglomeration. They become a "human being" ... they take on "human
life" ... they become something that other human beings should not destroy
for no reason other than convenience ... which they consider insufficient.
(I do not support this reasoning, but I understand where these people get
their ideas and they are not crazy people ... well some are, but not all.)
I think the balance of moral considerations does not include allowing other
people not involved in the conception to interfere with the woman who is the
host of the new conglomeration of cells.

You are certainly on the right tract in developing your own personal
morality if you are thinking that there are times in between conception and
"taking its first breath" when a human thingee has "transitioned" into
something more than a new conglomeration of cells. The problem is one of
determination. The point of conception is the "safest" and most definitive
point for some people. This seems too dogmatic for me. But then, those
that choose "first breath" as the only point are just as dogmatic ... as a
matter of fact, for me, I think the former have a much stronger case than
the later ... even though I disagree with both.

Now, your 1) and 2) above would be good if they could actually be defined in
some accurate way. I am not aware of such "tests" ... "quickening" has been
another that has been proposed. For me, the trimester compromise is
arbitrary but is closely correlated to medical practice and research.

We still do not know whether the discussion of "mind" as separate and
distinct from "body" is a "rational" one. Any attempt to simplify the
ethical discussion of "abortion" with all that the word and the act implies
may be an exercise in futility. The extremists of this discussion are
particularly difficult to deal with. Those of us caught in the middle must
remain be content with fending off the stones from both ends.


(You might also define what you mean by the words "dishonest" and
"calling"
while you are at it.

The original poster was the first to use the word "dishonest", which,
according to him, applies to anyone who didn't share his opinion. I
notice you didn't take him to task for his use of the word. I'm not
sure where your confusion is regarding my use of the word "calling".
He calls abortion murder because he chooses to call a fetus a baby.


I have forgotten which person you mean, but I suspect it was the one that
was screaming "abortion is murder" and "pro choice people believe it is OK
to kill babies" ... do I really need to take such a person to task for being
an extremist? What good would it do? No, you seemed to imply that a full
term human thingee was just a fetus ... with the implication that the term
"baby" for such a creature was completely dishonest. I disagree. I have no
difficulty in calling an unborn baby a "baby" ... if someone wants to add
"unborn" to my use of the term "baby" ... that is OK ... but to insist that
I not use the word "baby" is disingenuous to me. Calling an unborn "baby" a
"fetus" to dehumanize it is disingenuous to me.


You seem to be content with defining your way out of
moral dilemmas. It will also be important for you to define the edges of
your use of English words.)


Not at all. In fact, it's the pro-lifers who try to define their way
into being right on the issue. I've shown why their word games don't
hold water.

I am not sure your goatskin of water/truth is as secure as you might
suspect. Those with no doubts in this area are often falling into the same
traps that they argue so vociferously have ensnared their opponents.


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: When Life Begins
    ... a foetus is not a human being. ... shown that a fetus is a human being. ... Btw, if you're going to be picky about the difference between those words, then the statement "a fetus is human from the moment of conception" makes no sense, since NO FETUS EXISTS at the moment of conception. ... with someone who thinks the foetus is a baby. ...
    (alt.smokers.cigars)
  • Re: A womans right to choose
    ... "Exactly" when does a fetus become a baby? ... The pro-lifers play word games when they ... the fetus attains the ability to survive outside the womb. ...
    (rec.gambling.poker)
  • Re: A womans right to choose
    ... the fetus attains the ability to survive outside the womb. ... of someone related to say ok pull the plug lets 'let him go' (murder) ... He calls abortion murder because he chooses to call a fetus a baby. ... Word games once again. ...
    (rec.gambling.poker)
  • Re: OT: Attention Paul G
    ... >Apparently you are trying to make the case that a fetus IS a baby. ... >Another question which has absolutely nothing to do with whether abortion ... >assertion of fact for which you have zero factual basis. ...
    (rec.gambling.poker)
  • Re: (NBC) Joe Wilson on Obama
    ... Plus the fetus' respiratory and circulatory systems are not fully ... A person's rights end where another's body begins. ... Scott Peterson was convicted of two counts of murder. ... the baby was viable, therefore it had rights. ...
    (rec.music.artists.springsteen)