Re: OT: The Republicans are going down, baby!
- From: "William Coleman" <ramashiva@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Demagoguery Ramashiva Rules IESOUS CHRISTOS THEOU YIOS SOTER THEOS SOTERES
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"wadner" <wadner@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1153858477.155025.237680@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
:
: William Coleman wrote:
: > "wadner" <wadner@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
: > news:1153772030.190712.218060@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
: > > If Medicare and Medicaid are such wonderful systems, why don't
: > > physicians refuse to take privately insured individuals? I know of
: > > none that have done that.
: >
: > Two reasons. Only 70 million people are covered by Medicare. That
leaves
: > 230 million potential customers.
:
: 70 Million customers? If I was a doctor I think I could find a way to
: make a living servicing 70 million people.
:
: > Also, private insurance reimburses doctors at higher rates.
:
: So doctors get shortchanged by Medicare?
No one is shortchanged. No doctor is forced to accept Medicare patients.
: > > Surely an internist in private practise could see the wisdom of such a
: > > move, go out on his own, and do nothing but government work.
: >
: > I already gave you your answer.
: >
: > > Maybe
: > > some have done that. I don't have any firsthand knowledge of such
: > > doctors. Do you?
: >
: > No, but I would guess that there are doctors near large retirement
: > communities whose practice is all, or almost all, Medicare patients.
: >
: > > A system like the one you propose could be easily defrauded.
: >
: > As can any insurance system. Do you think private insurance companies
do
: > not have a major fraud problem?
:
: But financial incentives exist to prevent and curtail fraud in the
: private sector. No such incentive exists in government buearacracy.
Huh? That statement is pure nonsense.
: Although we do have overzealous goverment officials that bully the
: population, especially when it comes to income taxes. So maybe
: Medicare can hire them. Maybe we can even sick the Drug Czar after
: them. They seem to enjoy seizing property and selling it off.
:
: >
: > > Who will
: > > check up on doctors to make sure they aren't "over charging" or
billing
: > > for procedures not done?
: >
: > Medicare already has policies and procedures to prevent and detect
fraud.
: > No system is perfect.
: >
: > > While individual doctors may see savings in
: > > adminstrative expenses, the government will baloon like an overwieght
: > > pig.
Why would it do that. There would be no new huge bureaucracy. Simply
ramping up the existing Medicare system to handle 300 million patients from
the current 70 million is all that is necessary. Since the system is
largely computerized, the number of new Medicare employees would increase
only slightly.
: > Why would it do that? All we are talking about is opening Medicare to
: > everyone. Most of the administration of Medicare is computerized.
Ramping
: > up coverage from 70 million to 300 million will entail increasing the
size
: > of the Medicare bureauracy, but not nearly to scale.
: >
: > > I'd like to see some source for a 4% adminstrative expense for
Medicare.
: >
: > The specific source of that figure was a Paul Krugman column, as was the
15%
: > figure for administrative overhead for private insurance companies.
: >
: > I have seen other figures of 4% to 6% for Medicare, and 15% to 20% for
: > insurance companies.
: >
: > If you do not consider Paul Krugman an authoritative source of economic
: > statistics, then you and I cannot have a conversation. He is one of the
: > most respected economists in the world. His columns are scrutinized by
his
: > conservative critics for any possible error. They do find some, and he
: > corrects his errors like all legitimate scholars do. But trust me,
: > Professor Krugman makes every effort to get his facts straight.
: >
: > > Price controls are great, but you can't control a doctor's cost.
: >
: > It is incumbent on Medicare to be cognizant of doctors' costs and set
price
: > schedules that will allow the doctor to make a reasonable profit.
Medicare
: > obviously succeeds, otherwise, no doctor would treat Medicare patients.
:
: A lot of doctors choose not to accept Medicare patients. A lot more
: than choose to accept only Medicare patients.
:
: > > I don't see how the price controls will stop costs from spiraling out
: > > of control when you are proposing that anyone should be able to see
any
: > > doctor anytime they want.
: >
: > I never proposed that. Obviously Medicare is succeeding in controlling
: > health care costs, because statistics don't lie. Medicare provides
: > comparable health care at a lower total cost than the private sector.
:
: It is? The Medicare budget hasn't ballooned since it's inception?
You are obviously totally ignorant of the facts in this matter. As I have
repeatedly stated, Medicare provides health care at a lower total cost than
the private sector.
: > > Businesses are running into problems with
: > > health insurance because people are utilizing health care frequently
: > > for everything. Have a slight cough, see the doc. Cut your finger,
: > > race to the emergency room. We have no balance on usage.
: >
: > Yes, what you are describing is a problem endemic to all insurance
programs
: > where the patient only has small deductibles and copays. This is not a
: > problem unique to Medicare or universal single payer health care.
:
: Correct, but universal health coverage does not solve the problem.
It solves many problems. Covering everyone would result in a total cost
savings of about $500 billion out of total health care expenditures of about
$2 trillion. It provides an effective means of controlling costs and
breaking the back of health care costs spiralling out of control. It also
solves what is currently a huge problem -- the 45 million uninsured who now
clog hospital emergency rooms for routine health care.
: We
: need solutions to spiraling costs, dumping money into a federal program
: doesn't solve anything.
Stop listening to insurance company propaganda and look at the facts. All
we are talking about is making the government the universal insurer and
giving everyone the option of joining the Medicare system, which is financed
by premiums, copays, and deductibles. Now only those over 65 are in
Medicare. If everyone is invited in, the premiums would decrease
dramatically, since children and young adults are very cheap to insure.
: It transfers the cost. Maybe we save some
: money in adminstration costs,
About $200 billion in administrative costs for doctors and hospitals.
Another $200 billion in saved administrative costs of the insurance
companies.
: but we lose it all back in fraud
Please explain why fraud in Medicare is anymore of a problem than private
insurance company fraud.
: and lack of choice when it comes to medical care.
Stop gullibly swallowing insurance company propaganda. Do you actually know
anyone who is on medicare? They have complete freedom to select their
doctors and treatment.
: Do you really want George
: Bush (or Hillary Clinton, or Ted Kennedy, or Conrad Burns) determining
: appropriate care?
No I don't, and they would have no say, other than passing laws about how
Medicare operates and is funded.
: > > Surely you'd
: > > agree that if a business somehow felt that a good employee benefit
: > > would be free gas cards, the miles said employees drove would explode.
: > > We are seeing that in employer sponsored health programs.
: >
: > Again, none of these problems are unique to universal single payer
health
: > care.
:
: Again, universal single payer health care does nothing to solve the
: problem.
You couldn't be more wrong. Please do some research and stop regurgitating
insurance company propaganda. This issue has been researched in depth by
doctors who specialize in medical economics. Everything I am saying comes
from this research.
: > > The only reason we tie health insurance to our employment anyway was
: > > due to the extreme taxes imposed when the income tax was started in
the
: > > early part of last century.
: >
: > Uhh, no. You are 100% wrong. Please do not make factual statements
when
: > you do not know what you are talking about.
: >
: > The reason health insurance is tied to employment goes back to World War
II,
: > when there was a labor shortage and a freeze on wages.
: >
: > Employers needed a way to attract employees, so they offered free health
: > insurance, which was relatively inexpensive at that time.
: >
: > > Prior to that people fended for themselves
: > > and doctors actually made housecalls.
: >
: > You think that is a better system? Let everyone fend for themselves?
What
: > about those who cannot fend for themselves? I guess you think they
should
: > just do without medical care.
:
: A person can get care in virtually any emergency room anywhere in the
: country. Doctors don't turn dying patients away.
Yes, and that is one of the reasons our current health care system is
totally broken. Uninsured people who cannot afford medical care wait until
their condition is acute, then they clog the emergency rooms. This is an
extremely inefficient way to run a health care system.
: > > Now the real issue with health care, as I'm sure you will agree, is
the
: > > population of unhealthy individuals. We are getting fatter and
fatter.
: > > Along with this weight comes more and more health problems. We have a
: > > system that doesn't encourage good health. In fact we are attempting
: > > to develop drugs that relieve symptoms of obesity but create a whole
: > > host of other issues without attempting to cure the underlying
: > > condition. Look in your grocery store and you will see aisles and
: > > aisles of processed junk. Government sponsored health care encourages
: > > even worse beahvior. If you don't have to worry about paying for any
: > > of your care, then who cares how much of it you need or use?
: >
: > There are deductibles an copays. Health care provided by Medicare is
not
: > 100% free.
:
: So what kind of deductibles and copays are you suggesting? Different
: levels for different incomes? And the drug companies have sure gotten
: a boost to their bottom lines with part D.
My proposal is very simple. Give everyone the option to enroll in Medicare.
No one would be forced to do so. The option would still be there to keep
private health insurance. Of course, the insurance companies are bitterly
opposed to this, because they know they cannot compete with Medicare in
terms of premium costs. Believe it or not, this really is an example where
a government program is much more efficient than private enterprise.
: > > We have
: > > an FDA that approves the use of chemical poisons in our bodies and
call
: > > them medication. Meanwhile our government outlaws God given plants.
: > > We have an FDA that approves the use of chemical poisons in our
fields,
: > > that now after over 100 years of farming have been stripped of
: > > nutrients. We have an FDA that tried to ban the use of ephedra
because
: > > the drug companies didn't like the fact it boosted hundreds of
: > > thousands of individuals ability to lose wieght. Until we break the
: > > strangelhold of traditional medicine in this country on health care we
: > > are fighting an uphill battle.
: >
: > I agree 100% with what you are saying, but none of this shows universal
: > health care is a bad idea, just that our health care system needs a
complete
: > overhaul, not just a change to a single payer health care system.
:
: This point we agree on. You haven't yet argued for an overhaul of our
: health care system. Just one big giant insurance fund for everyone.
Giving everyone the option to enroll in Medicare would be a huge overhaul,
and would result in immediate cost savings of about $500 billion per year,
while insuring the 45 million uninsured. Because Medicare can control what
it will pay doctors, you also have an effective means to rein in health care
costs, which will bankrupt the federal government if nothing is done to
contain costs.
: > > While I'm not totally opposed to universal health insurance, I fail to
: > > see how it will stop health care from becoming an unmanagebale
: > > behemoth.
: >
: > It is our only hope of curbing the runaway upward spiral of health care
: > costs, which, in turn will cause Medicare and Medicaid costs to explode,
: > bankrupting the federal government.
:
: What proof do you have that a universal single pay plan will save our
: health care system?
I never claimed it would save the health care system, but it would result in
about $500 billion in savings in administrative costs, insure the 45 million
uninsured, and provide an effective mechanism to slow down health care
inflation.
Do you just want to give GW Bush and his cronies
: more power and influence over us? If we have any privacy from
: government intrusion, this will be the proverbial last straw.
Do you know anything at all about Medicare? There is no government
intrusion or privacy violation. Unfortunately for apologists for insurance
companies like you, there are 70 million people on Medicare, and they get
excellent care with very low premiums.
: Medicare patients are restricted on procedures for which the
: 'insurance' will pay.
You think private health insurance has no restrictions on coverage?
Surely you don't believe any alternative
: medicine or dietary guidelines which have given your mother a wonderful
: life will ever be approved by a government run, FDA approved universal
: single payer system, do you?
Why wouldn't it? Preventative medicine is a prominent feature of many
Health Maintenance Organizations. We are essentially talking about an HMO
with 300 million members.
:
: > This is not scare talk. This is real. This is why Bush is such a joke.
He
: > wants to "save" Social Security by destroying it, when Social Security
is
: > running a $200 billion surplus, and the SS Trust Fund will pay all
promised
: > benefits for the next 40 years, even if there is not another tweaking of
: > FICA tax rates and promised benefits.
: >
: > But he has no interest in reforming Medicare and Medicaid, because the
only
: > logical solution is universal single payer health care, which the
insurance
: > companies bitterly oppose. They don't want the competition, because it
will
: > cut into their profits.
:
: You can bet the drug companies will love universal health care.
No they won't. They will hate it. Medicare Part D is a huge giveaway to
the drug companies, since the government is prohibited from negotiating
prices with the drug companies. This will all change when the Democrats get
back in power.
: When guidlines suggest the only way to prevent disease will be loading us
up
: with chemicals. It won't be long before vitamins and other nutritional
: supplements will become outlawed and availible by prescription only.
Oh please. The FDA already tried that and got slapped down hard.
: > > Assuming the average person gets as much from
: > > government-run-universal-health care as disabled individuals get from
: > > Social Security disability, we will be in for a long and bumpy ride.
: >
: > We are in for a long bumpy ride, no matter what, because Bush's foolish
tax
: > cuts have put us in a deep fiscal hole which is getting deeper, when
Clinton
: > had us on course to pay off the national debt in ten years.
:
: This we agree on.
:
: > But universal single payer health care is clearly part of the solution,
not
: > part of the problem.
: >
:
: There is a major problem but single payer health care is not really
: part of the solution.
It is the solution. Please do some research on this topic as you are
totally uniformed.
--
William Coleman (ramashiva)
Department of Agitation, Propaganda, and Demagoguery
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