Re: Is it wise to push all-in early in a tournament?

Hmm, the thing that I would ask you to consider is that a winning poker
player, in my mind, tailors his play to maximising these two opportunities:
1. finding favourable investments (or pot-odds overlays)
2. finding statistically successful bluffs (or folding equity).

The thing that I see in your reasoning is that you understand the former but
refuse to take advantage of the latter. The best times to make a push play
are when you have the opportunity to get both of these things. Essentially,
this is the principle of the semibluff. If you know you have 2:1 to make
the best hand and win a pot that pays 3:1 with all your chips in, you HAVE
to call. (This is the situation you are often giving to your opponents by
not pushing allin with the best hand right there)

But why call when you can push and take down a nice pot when your opponent
lays down the best-but-not-strong hand?

Every time I get in a situation like this and it is my turn to act, I try to
ask myself this question, "If this guy goes allin behind me, will I be
forced to call?" If the answer is, "yes" then I push right there, because I
would much rather maximise my folding equity with the biggest one-shot
bet/raise and give him the best opportunity to fold instead of having to be
the one to correctly call with the best-but-vulnerable or worst-but-drawing
hand due to the pot situation.

So what I am trying to make you understand is that by NOT pushing your best
hands early in the tourney (yet pot-commiting yourself to call a reraise),
you are probably very often giving your opponents more reasons to call you
down or worse, giving them the opportunity to make a big, and more
importantly sound, semibluff.

I've also discovered that I don't have to go all-in to make someone quit.
All
that is necessary is a big bet.

But remember that if this "big bet" is a significant portion of your stack,
to the point where you are pot committed to a reraise or call, you should
just push right there.

I will admit, and this is a curiosity, that it seems often you are often
more likely to be called by some people with an allin bet than just a large
bet, but I think that with most people an allin really does force them to
think about folding.

By the way, none of this matters in a ring game. Anytime I can continually
rebuy, I will always put in as many chips as I feel will accomplish my
objective. If I don't want a call, or If I feel a call with an inferior
hand,
I'm willing to push them all-in.

I honestly think you should apply this to tourney games. If your goal is to
keep your hand from getting shown down and get sucked out on less, pushing
with the best of it is the optimal strategy to keep that from happening.

WM


"TD" <43083684@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1145485435$778711@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Thanks for the compliments. I feel like I'm on the right track. You may
have a
misunderstanding of how I support my strong hands. If I am forced in, I
will
go. However, if I am forcing the betting, I will back off and not risk my
entire stack. By the way, for the most part I have been playing very
aggressively to this point in my career, which appears to be mainstream. I
recently began to alter my play after analyzing my hand histories. The
results
have been amazing. Now, for the most part, I have to beat twice to be out.
If
I continuously push all my chips, I can only be wrong once. I used to fear
losing half my stack, but I don't anymore. I've won very few SNG's where I
wasn't a big underdog with a short stack at some point. Of course, I would
rather have a big stack, but I'm not afraid of the short stack.

I've also discovered that I don't have to go all-in to make someone quit.
All
that is necessary is a big bet.

By the way, none of this matters in a ring game. Anytime I can continually
rebuy, I will always put in as many chips as I feel will accomplish my
objective. If I don't want a call, or If I feel a call with an inferior
hand,
I'm willing to push them all-in.

On Apr 17 2006 10:35 PM, WarMech wrote:

I see what you're saying about winding up with at most half your stack in
the pot on 5th street instead of starting with that. I still think,
though,
that you should consider that survival in tournaments is done one of two
ways:

1. Hanging in there and winning showdown when you're forced to go allin.
2. Using your chips and the reads of your opponents skillfully to build
your stack as you go through the levels, avoiding as many showdowns as
possible by protecting your good-but-vulnerable hands and pushing people
out
who have best-but-weak hands.

I consider it my goal in any tournament to do the latter as much as
possible. I find my success at building my bankroll with tournament play
hinges on my effectiveness at the second. Sometimes you get cards, often
you don't, but there is ALWAYS the possibility of outplaying weaker
players
if you know how to pick your spots.

You obviously understand big-picture tournament strategy better than 90%
of
the people I play against. However, there is a time that you choose
tourney
strategy over NLHE tactics, and there is a time you don't. I think
anytime
you have better than 2:1 you need to strongly consider that as an
opportunity you just can't walk away from. I agree that it is a mistake
most people make in getting involved in too many big pots early on in the
tournament, but +4:1 odds make the value of possibly having a big chip
lead
early too good to pass up.

I'm not trying to offend you, but I just have a hard time thinking of how
you would win any pots with this thinking. Hypothetically, let's say a
hand
early in the tourny the flop gives you top set but there's two suited
cards
on the board. You bet, putting a total of 1/3 (including PF bets) of your
chips in the pot and the guy goes allin. At best he's got two pair or
overpair and at worst he semibluffing on a flush draw, which means he has
~30% chance to win. You obviously call here, right? How would you avoid
these situations, not betting on the flop with the best hand making it
easier to fold? Would you just push with top set and hope he didn't have
odds to call? In this case, you have the best situation you could hope
for
and you STILL likely have 70% to win (worse than the 80% you have pushing
with A's)

My point is, I agree with the tactic of avoiding showdown as much as you
can
help, but you have to showdown sometime, so you may as well get it out of
the way when you are hugely favoured and the tournament is young. There
just aren't going to be a lot of opportunities you will get better than
80%.

And, one thing I was just thinking about, if you have a hand like AA
there
really is no better time to push than before the flop if you are counting
on
getting someone to fold. After the flop, he can easily stay in the hand
if
he makes a strong-but-2nd best hand, a better hand, or a strong enough
draw.
Before the flop a huge overbet may mean one thing to him, and one thing
only, "I'm way behind."

I know, it sucks when you get called with total junk and lose (I got AA
cracked by 24s once). But huge odds to double up and help you survive
really are what you are playing for. Tournament strategy is best used in
conjunction with game tactics, not as a complete substitute.

Anyway, I can tell you are leap years ahead of most people in terms of
tourney strategy, I have no doubt this strength is why you are
successful.
But if you aren't playing your A's more aggressively before the flop, you
could probably improve your game right there by tweaking your tactics.

WM


"TD" <43083684@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1145334753$777665@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I understand your logic and it does make sense. What wasn't clear in my
original post is that I would prefer to risk half my stack but not with
an
immediate push before the flop. If I had control of the betting, I
would
prefer
to work the pot up to that amount as the cards fell. Some people might
say
that
the cards may not fall my way and that's true, but at least I have a
fold
option. Once all the chips are in, I have no options. Some players may
think I
am too conservative but my only objective is making the final table. So
far I'm
45% in the money and I know some are better. That's why I'm posting
here.

On Apr 17 2006 7:47 PM, WarMech wrote:

I'm having trouble understanding your "reserve stack" concept because
it
doesn't make logical sense to me.

I understand your question to be: If you knew for a fact that you had
at
least a 4:1 advantage with your cards, would you be willing to hold
back
half? Well, the problem is, if I'm calling with half my stack before
the
flop, it's going to be a hand I'm just going to push with. I can't
commit
half my stack early in a tournament on a hand I'm not very willing to
take a
stand with, and with that much money in the pot I'm very likely going
to
push after the flop anyway. If I don't push, any competent player will
get
his chips in anyway and I'll be forced to call unless it's just
obvious I
am
beaten. If I'm going to call before the flop, I'd rather take the
folding
equity (from what I've seen some people will fold after a ridiculous
PF
bet)
and just push while I have the best of it.

In this case, you speak of a 4:1 advantage so a perfect example would
be
getting dealt AA. There are really only a couple of situations where
it
is
strategically sound to fold AA PF in a tourney when you believe you
will
get
a call. 99% of the time you want to push and hopefully get called.

Why risk the whole tournament? Is that a joke? Most of the time, you
don't
even get 4:1 after the flop so why not get your chips in when you're
absolutely certain you have the best of it?

I am as big an advocate as you will find for the concept of not
playing
big
pots early and establishing a table image and getting a read on your
opponents for when you get shorthanded. But taking ridiculously high
odds
to double up early in a tournament is an opportunity you can't refuse
since
you get to bully the table with your stack. Go allin early and learn
to
play aggressive, smart big-stack poker, and you will not have to be
allin
again for quite awhile. Especially after everyone at the table sees
what
happened to the last guy who called one of your PF raises.

Taking a race (typically calling with AK) early in a tournament when
you
know you are a better than average player in the field: mistake
Taking a race early in a tournament when you know you are a below
average
player in the field: clever
Taking a 4:1 shot early in a tournament: one of the very few automatic
plays
in poker

WM


"TD" <43083684@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1145318541$777539@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I see many players go out early getting their monster hands cracked.
A
wiser
strategy may be to reserve up to half a stack in case the 4 or 5-1
advantage
doesn't hold up. Even with great odds, why risk the whole
tournament?
Why
fall
in love with one hand when it takes 30 to 40 winning hands to
prevail.
In
spite
of the favorable odds, the way I see it is, everything to lose,
little
to
gain.

Anything wrong with this theory?

(Note:) This doesn't mean folding if forced in.

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