Re: Questions about Ciaffone/Brier - Middle Limit Holdem

I agree. I read his "Championship Pot-Limit NL" book a week before a
tournament and it was my worst showing ever.

One of the reasons it's so 'weak-tight' is a complete lack of the
continuation bet, his advice to not bet if you miss the flop, etc. In TJ's
book, if you raise with AK and miss the flop, simply stop betting.

It was purely awful and nothing Championship about it.

-Warren


On Mar 16 2006 4:42 PM, MysteriAce wrote:

On Mar 16 2006 2:11 PM, Ron Dworkin wrote:

FellKnight wrote:
To snip this question down further (and hopefully to get some feedback),
The following are my questions.

1. Do you recommend this book? If so, why? If not, why?

I recommend it mostly because it has tons of hand exercises to work
through. These are usually pretty good even if you disagree with the
authors reasoning- look what it got you thinking about and posting.

2. Does the recommended style of play seem conducive to proftiable play
at the middle limits?

I am more of a low limit player as I tend to play 10-20 live and up to
5-10 online, so I can't really comment on actual 'middle' limit play,
but anyway, I find the advice throughout to vary. Some discussions are
weak-tight enough to qualify as T.J. material (worst books out there),
and some is pretty good, IMO. I like other books better, but it does
give a lot of different situations with some decent discusion which is
worth reading.

Just a sidebar question, what about TJ Cloutier's books do you find to be
weak/tight, exactly? I've heard this description before, and I don't get
it.


3. Am I completely off-base with proper LHE play?

Only if you would still fold 7c4c in the BB. Otherwise no. The 99
almost certainly should be played for a raise, and the play with the AQ
probably depends a bit on your read of the player, as you allude to.
However, in general, raising from LP and then folding straight away to
the BB headsup on the flop is probably not the best plan of attack for
winning poker :)


Fell

On Mar 16 2006 11:48 AM, FellKnight wrote:

After reading a bunch of positive feedback from RGP about this book, I
decided to pick it up. I must say, I am not at all impressed with the
incredibly weak/tight poker advice presented in the book thus far. Do
those of you who recommend the book actually recommend playing like
this?
Is it simply a function of the games changing and becoming looser and
less
straight-forward?

Ciaffone and Brier, in the puzzles, always seem to put their opponent
on
the worst possible hand, and recommend a fold. I cannot envision such
a
strategy winning at any of the moderately loose mid-limit games seen in
Vegas (and probably moreso LA).

Another nit to pick is that they rarely describe the playing style of
the
opponent, which is critical information in the play of any hand, and
often
stop the analysis on the flop, leaving the turn play up in the air.

A couple of examples:
--------------
Chap 15, Overcards (p. 83): A $30-$60 game. You open for a raise in
the
cutoff with Ah Qc. The button and small blind fold. The BB re-raises
and
you call. There is $200 in the pot and two players. The flop is Jh 8h
3d, giving you a backdoor nut-flush draw in addition to two overcards.
The BB bets. What do you do?

A. Fold. There is $230 in the pot and it costs you $30 to call. But
what
are your outs? You have six outs plus a backdoor possibility. Your
six-outer is a 7-to-1 shot, and this is about what the pot is offering,
but you will not win all the time when your outs arrive. The Big Blind
three-betting frequently means a big pair or Ace-King. Against AK you
are
dead to a Queen, and an Ace will cost you money. Against a big pair,
you
will need an Ace - or a doctor.
--------------

Ok, first of all, about 30 pages ago, the authors discuss proper blinds
play when facing a possible steal raise. You open-raise from the
cutoff,
the BB should 3-bet with many hands that he intends to play, including
weaker Aces, small pairs, even hands like KQ. So how, exactly, do the
authors now assume that the three-bet means AK or a big pair? This is
horrible, scared advice IMO. Depending on the BB's 3-betting range, a
4-bet to maintain the initiative would often be correct, IMO, preflop.
Even if you chose to flat-call the 3-bet, you cannot simply roll over
with
what may well be the best hand. Folding on the flop is simply
horrible.
This is an unthreatening flop, with only one high card (your opponent
would need AJ to have likely hit it), and you will often be ahead.
This
is the place for a raise! Calling is not horrible, but it allows the
BB
to maintain the initiative, and he should probably bet out again on the
turn no matter what falls, given that you were on a potential
steal-raise
and could have a very mediocre hand.

Comments?

----------------
Example 2 (Chap 16, Overpair and Top Pair, p.95):

A $30-$60 game. An early player limps, and you limps in EP with 9h 9c.
Two middle players, the button, and the small blind (a top pro) all
limp.
There is $210 in the pot and seven players. The flop is 6s 6h 2c,
giving
you an overpair. The SB bets, the BB and early limper fold. What do
you
do?

A. Call. Raising would be a risky play in this situation. Normally,
when
you flop an overpair in an unraised pot, you should raise when someone
bets. But this is an exception. A top pro will probably not lead
into a
field of six other players from the SB position without trips when the
board pairs small like this and the odd card is lower ranking than the
pair. The only legitimate betting hand you can beat is a pocket pair
of
sevens or eights. But the SB is far less likely than anyone else to
have
started with a pocket pair, especially in a structure where he is
two-thirds of the way in already, as in $30-$60. Moreover, someone
behind
you may have a six even if the bettor does not.
---------------------------

Ok, where to start with this horrid advice?

First of all, if you are putting the "top pro" on trips, then you
should
fold, not call.

Secondly, what happens if you are the only caller and the SB bets again
on
the turn. We really have no idea where we stand.

Thirdly, any "top pro" worth his salt is always looking for good
bluffing
situations. This is a small pair and a deuce on a rainbow flop. This
is
an excellent bluffing opportunity, as the limpers are likely to have
missed. There is 7:1 on the bluff, and even if two bullets are needed,
this bluff needs only be successful around 25% of the time to be
profitable. It will be.

Fourthly, there are other legitimate betting hands than trips. The
"top
pro" may be semi-bluffing with a gutshot draw (due to the reasons
described above), may be betting a deuce, and may be betting a smaller
pair such as threes, fours, fives, sevens, or eights. A top pro knows
that such hands are vulnerable, and must be protected, and that it is
unlikely that a big pocket pair is out, given the action preflop, thus
he
must only worry about middle pairs.

My advice in this scenario is to raise! If somebody behind you has a
six,
you will know it, as they cold call or three-bet. You can then get
away
from the hand on the turn (after calling the third bet on the flop, but
folding if it is three-bet and four-bet behind you). You also protect
your hand, and assure yourself that the button does not decide to call
a
single bet closing the action on the flop with 2 overcards (as most
players with overcards would lay them down to this action).

As for the SB, we can learn much from his reaction. Depending on how
tricky he is, we may have to call him down even if he three-bets
(fourth
level thinking here, as he can't put you on a six limping from EP, so
he
three-bets to represent the six, so you call him down because you know
that he knows that you can't have a six).

If he simply calls, you can sometimes bet, sometimes check behind on
the
turn. If you are faced with a check-raise on the turn, you can then
have
a much better idea as to whether or not you are beaten by trips, and
can
lay the hand down correctly. If he simply calls again, you can check
behind on the river and showdown your hand (expecting him to show you a
pocket pair, as a top pro would not check/call with a gutshot on the
turn).

I feel that the advice given by the authors is the worst of the three
possible options.

Thoughts?

Fell
--
Visit http://www.fellknight.com for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
(STILL IN BETA MODE)


--
Visit http://www.fellknight.com for strategy, blog, reviews and more!
(STILL IN BETA MODE)



~ MysteriAce

"Big lizard in my backyard,
Can't afford to feed him anymore..."

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