Re: Meat Prices Going Up

Emma Thackery wrote:

In article <461FF1E8.150BAB26@xxxxxxxx>,
"Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

Emma Thackery wrote:

In article <461F0868.733B9212@xxxxxxxx>,
"Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

Emma Thackery wrote:

In article <461ECF86.1385426F@xxxxxxxx>,
"Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

While some PYVs have have their big SUV for no good reason, they
represent a pretty small percentage of the users.

What are the "good reasons" and on what data are you basing your claim?

Good reasons would be about the same as those for the big station wagons
that were the SUVs of yesteryear. Terrible antisocial activities like
taking the two kids and a couple of their friends on a camping trip for
the weekend with a boat (or PWC or ATVs or whatever) in tow.

It is discomfiting to parse the sarcasm. You obviously have something
nagging at you but I'm not clear about what it is. I can only wonder if
your statements stem mainly from being criticized for having an SUV or
going camping or having children or whatever. I'm going out on a bit of
a limb here to assume it's the first you've taken personally. You might
be hesitant to put a real name on it because then you might have to face
up to what it really is.

I don't have an SUV.

Trucks (pickups), SUVs, vans, minivans, whatever your nomenclature, are
all classified as light trucks (though with so many at over 6000# now,
that is hardly "light"). I'm using the term "SUV" generically to
include them all. My point stands.

Your point is on the top of your head if you think that. If you're going
to lump such widely varied vehicles in the same category you should be
including tow trucks (regular and flatbed) and box trucks and step vans
in there as well as they are in the same range.


<relevance snips>

Hardly. It's quite relevant what I use my large pickup for as it totally
refutes your claims of a lack of need.


My point is that that this myth of all these irresponsible people
suddenly buying huge SUVs for no good reason is just that, a myth being
hyped by the eco crowd.

Well you certainly haven't provided a shred of evidence to support your
"myth" theory. And I have a feeling that "eco-crowd" is only one of
many labels you use, intended as pejoratives, to cast anyone who
disagrees with you in a bad light. It's just so much easier and more
convenient than dealing with facts.

It's apparently easier for you to believe what you want to believe than
open your eyes to the real world. Take a look at what's really out there
for SUVs, make note of the license plates of a few you see solo
commuting during the week and look for them on weekends to see what
they're loaded with and/or towing.


People are basically buying the same vehicles
they have been buying for years since today's SUV = yesterdays big
station wagon.

US Dept. of Transportation statistics do not support your claim. But
here's something easier. Just watch any old movie from the 1950s, 60s
or 70s. Look at the parking lots and vehicles parked on the streets.
You will see very few vehicles in the light truck or truck category.
You're in denial... just plain wrong.

As I said, the old big station wagon provided the same interior square
footage and utility that requires an SUV today since those station
wagons no longer exist. The station wagons of today are 30%+ smaller
than those of the past. Look in those pictures and you will see the
majority of the vehicles pictures are those big station wagons and very
few small cars. If you were to replace every SUV in a picture from today
with a big station wagon you'd find the picture bears a striking
resemblance to those of yesterday. My point stands. Additionally those
station wagons of yesterday were getting like 8 MPG where the SUVs today
are more like 15 MPG despite the higher HP and torque numbers. Higher
efficiency and lower emissions.


Here's the thing. Some of us have managed to raise families, go
camping, fishing, boating, tend scout troops, carpool, shop, cart around
trees & shrubs, pick up loads of manure and mulch for the garden, etc,
etc, etc....... and all without ever having owned an SUV or a truck....

Here is the thing. I don't turn over vehicles every two years like some
ego-centric bozos do.... [...]

The age of your truck is irrelevant to this discussion. Whether it is
one year or 15 years old, the same set of problems remains.

Hardly. Someone turning over a car every couple years consumes far more
energy and resources than someone using a truck for a decade.

But btw, I
live on a rural route and drive a 1992 car that has just over 70,000
miles on it.

1997, 170K+ and still going.


...What I resent is the constant clueless claims that all these
people driving the big empty vehicles solo to the grocery store don't
need them and are wasteful. In some cases this may be true, in most
it isn't.

But we live in a "free" country right? And we can buy what we want even
if it affects others in a negative way. Hell, we even have an executive
branch, right now, that decided to reward pick-up trucks and SUVs for
their over-dependence on oil by not having to pay their fair share for
road maintenance, air quality, etc, even though they pollute the air
more, use more energy, and are harder on the roads than most plain old
"cars". Lots of them even got tax subsidized rebates. Such a deal, eh?
Not.

Not sure where you get your idea that people in trucks and SUVs aren't
paying their fair share.

Open your eyes for a change. SUVs are classified as light trucks. All
vehicles in that category, including yours, are subject to far less
demanding environmental restrictions.

Most SUVs are misclassified as they are nothing more than glorified mini
vans, which is another reason the SUV bashers are sadly misinformed and
misguided.

Your vehicle is allowed to belch
out up to 5 times the amount of air pollution as my car. The cost to
the environment has to be paid by others or did you think there's a
fairy godmother who waves a magic wand over all your pollution?

The "cost to the environment" is in no way "paid by others". Everyone
lives in the same environment.


According to various studies including ones done by UMich and the
Lawrence Berkeley National Labs, SUVs are the most dangerous vehicles on
the road. The SUV rollover problem...

<http://www.suvrollovernews.com/>

Again, totally distorted to produce the predetermined conclusion. SUVs
are no more dangerous than any other vehicle. The piss poor driver
education in the US is where the problem lies. If you compare just fatal
accidents you'll see that SUVs are not significantly more dangerous,
they just allow bad drivers to kill themselves in more media hype
friendly ways.


... not only causes higher insurance rates both for SUVs and for those
they involve in their rollovers and other accidents but they endanger
other vehicles on the road because they roll over so much.

Bad drivers endanger others on the road, plain and simple, and it
doesn't matter what those bad drivers are driving.

This
represents actual monetary costs as well has human life and health.
Furthermore, as the accident rate goes up, insurance rates rise in
general.

The accident rate has been going down and continues to go down.


The bumper height on these vehicles is dangerous to other vehicles and
their occupants.

Another over hyped claim that just distracts from the real issue which
is poor driver education. It's very much like the attacks on guns where
a gun of course doesn't do a damn thing on their own, a human is always
100% responsible. But these days of course no human can be expected to
be responsible for their actions so we have to assign the blame to
inanimate objects.


SUVs are involved in the vast majority of rollover accidents and those
accidents have increased by over 200% in the last decade alone according
to data from the NHTSA.

Rollovers are again being over hyped by those wishing to attack SUVs.

Traffic deaths, once nearly stabilized, have
risen steadily with the increase of SUVs on the road.

Again largely false. Traffic deaths as an absolute count may be up, but
the number of vehicles and vehicle miles are also up. There really isn't
an increase in traffic death rates. The same bogus claims have been made
regarding motorcycle deaths and states that stopped requiring helmet
use. The fraud in that claim is that while the total number of deaths
might have gone up say 20%, total motorcycles on the road also increased
the same percentage.

Contrary to
opinion popular with SUV owners, these vehicles are not safer for either
them or other drivers and pedestrians.

They are when driven by a qualified driver, just as a semi is safe when
driven by a qualified driver. The problem lies with unqualified drivers,
not the vehicles. The same issue is rather prevalent with big RVs though
it doesn't get the media attention the SUV bashers get. There are a lot
of really big bus class RVs that are being driven by retirees with
declining eyesight and reaction times, who spent their entire previous
driving lives in a sedan and never had any extra training before getting
behind the wheel of something comparable to a city bus.


A majority of tots run over by vehicles backing up are killed by SUVs
and other vehicles in the light truck class. This type of accident has
increased with so many people driving SUVs and, now, more than one child
a week is killed in this manner.

Yes, but if you do an in depth review of these accidents looking back
before SUVs were common, you find it is the same people who have the
accidents. The vehicle has little to do with it. People who are
irresponsible, self absorbed and frequently distracted just started
buying SUVs. Their driving skills didn't suddenly go out the window when
they bought that vehicle, they never had them to begin with. They
previously backed over their kids in their Mercedes or BMW.


Your vehicle and other SUVs don't have to pay the federal and very
substantial gas guzzler tax. And that is because when the law was
passed in 1978, few of the vehicles were in the light truck class. And
now the majority of vehicles fall in that class but the loophole has not
been closed.

The "gas guzzler tax" is bogus to begin with. The more gas you use the
more tax you pay anyway since half the cost of the gas is tax to begin
with. Gas guzzler taxes are just as bogus and unconstitutional (equal
protection) as higher tax rates on those who earn more.


There is a lot more. The human and monetary cost to society for all
this SUV foolishness is incalculable.

Incalculable because it simply doesn't exist. The SUV of today is a
direct replacement for the large station wagon of yesterday. It is not
any worse and indeed is somewhat better due to better efficiency (even
if you don't think it's as high as it should be), better safety (even if
you don't think it's as safe as it should be) and lower emissions (even
if you don't think they're as low as they should be).


...If we use more fuel for a given mile of travel
we are paying more taxes per mile traveled since it's the fuel that is
taxed. Pickups and SUVs also do not put any more wear on roads than cars
do. There isn't any measurable difference in road wear until you get up
to a lot bigger vehicles like 80,000# semis.

That is absolutely false. Weight matters by any qualified statistic.
Why do you think there are weight limits on various road surfaces?
You're in denial.

PSF is what matters and the PSF between a 3,500# car with smaller tires
and a 6,000# SUV with larger tires is just about the same. If the tire
pressure is 35 PSI on both vehicles the PSF is the same as the weight is
distributed over a larger area. PSF goes up when tire pressure goes up
and I haven't seen many SUVs with 110 PSI tire pressure like a semi.
I'll gloss over the 65 PSI tire pressure on my truck since I regularly
carry 2,000# or more of cargo.


I can understand why you'd feel a bit defensive. Fortunately, more and
more people are beginning to recognize how small the planet really is
and that those plastic peanuts that accidently flew out of that box you
got last Christmas eventually ended up in the ocean and then were
finally found in the gut of some dead Albatross chick on an island you
never heard of. Why should any of us care indeed?

I hate those damn peanuts too. I much prefer the pillow pack cushions.
They provide better cushioning, are less likely to shift and leave the
packaged item unprotected, don't make a mess and some can be deflated
for easy storage for future reuse.

Once again, you miss the point which is that our choices affect others.
The choice of a truck or SUV affects everyone else. We can ignore facts
and pretend that it's not true. We can be a cantankerous boors and say
"To hell with everyone else; only my family is important". Or we can
take an honest look at what is happening around us and act in a manner
that is respectful of others and our surroundings.

Ok, then be respectful of others and stop your ego trip uninformed
bashing of my vehicle needs.


Millions of Americans drive gas-guzzling SUVs they don't even *slightly*
need. Most American families that own vehicles also have 2 or more of
them now. And somewhere between the *extreme* convenience of an SUV and
the other extreme of having to walk everywhere is a more reasonable,
rational, respectful-of-one's-neighbors way of deciding how we should
navigate our local communities going about our daily business. The
human psyche needs to progress beyond the "my spear is bigger than
yours" stage. We can all be better than that. If you complain to your
neighbor for leaving his trash cans out all week and he says that by
putting yours away you are just making an "eco-social" statement, I
doubt that would sit well with you. What we do affects others whether
you accept that or not.

We don't actually use trash cans here...

Again, trash cans aren't the point.

[...]

No, the point seems to simply be ego trip "I'm more responsible than
you" bashing of others vehicle choices without regard to their unique
needs.


...I also don't live in some hideous "gated community" or uppity
development where houses are 3.5" apart, have one square foot of lawn
and people have nothing better to do than bitch about what everyone
else is doing and try to buy a more expensive car.

While this also has nothing to do with the topic at hand, it does, I
suppose, serve to expose some of your underlying fixations and
prejudices. We're not talking about what "everyone else is doing";
we're talking about how so many light trucks on the road are a detriment
to the community as a whole. And while you can attach pejorative labels
to anyone who cares, I'm still betting that you have no problem
complaining when it's your ox in the ditch. When others complain, they
are meddlers but when you have a concern, a bullhorn isn't loud enough
to spread your message.

The only thing I complain about is over development and urban sprawl
destroying areas, and I expect anyone who likes to bash SUVs sees the
damage in that same issue.


Somehow, somewhere along the line you and most SUV drivers have missed
lessons in ethics, reciprocity and the golden rule.

My truck has come to the aid of city dwelling little car driving people
more times than I can count. My ethics are just fine. As for
reciprocity, this city dwelling little car driving people come to my aid
with far less regularity.

It's a one way
street with the benefits accruing to the SUV group but depleting others.

100% false, see above.

It's a double standard and why? Because some people, whether poorly
raised or poorly educated, harbor the notion that whatever they can get
away with is just fine. And if you hold onto the notion that the only
ones hurt are "uppity" busybodies from "gated communities", then I guess
we have to think you're like Robin Hood, taking from the rich and giving
to the poor--- a Marvel Super-Hero. Quick! Somebody get this guy to
the White House for his Medal of Freedom.

I'm the one hauling all their stuff when they move. I'm the one hauling
their building materials and all my tools when they do some remodeling.
Others are the ones hauling the lawn mowers and landscaping materials to
take care of their little yards. "They" couldn't live without "us". As a
bumper sticker on a dump truck I saw said "Your car and everything else
you own came on a truck".
.

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