Re: local food cost question

jacqui{JB} wrote:
>
> "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:43754207.E54F95DC@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > Ah, got it, so you tip for excellent service, but "normal"
> > service is considered part of the regular bill. So when
> > comparing the cost of dinner out you have to compare
> > US cost with tip to Danish cost without tip. Makes the
> > cost slightly less startling.
>
> Correct. Although I would tend to think that the average waiter in an
> average restaurant here makes a better wage than an average waiter in the
> US.

Quite possible, certainly in the US the particular restaurant the work
at has a significant bearing on their tip income.

>
> > My point wasn't so much about not having a car when
> > you don't need one, it was more that without the cost
> > of property taxes, maintenance and insurance on a car,
> > the budget shouldn't be to tight.
>
> We have a couple of financial obligations (which have no bearing on this
> discussion) which make the budget a bit tight, plus the norm here for
> couples is that both parties work.

Both rather the norm here as well these days.

> Maintaining a car is expensive; lots of
> people go to Germany or Sweden for car repairs.

Is maintaining a car there more expensive than here? $70-$80/hr is
pretty typical at most repair shops / dealers these days. Of course DIY
is cheaper if you're able to do that (I do).

> The property tax thing,
> though, we do have, since we own the flat -- this is where it gets a little
> complicated. The closest American thing to it is a co-op, which we
> (everyone living in the house) formed a couple of years ago, when the owner
> wanted to sell. It's worked out well, although monthly expenses have gone
> up a bit.

Sounds a bit more like a condo setup to me. You own your unit, pay taxes
on your unit, do the maint on your unit, but have an association and
association dues that takes care of the maint on the common areas.

>
> > Yes and no. Prior to 1970 the average may have been
> > 1,400 sq ft, but in much of the country there is/was really
> > another 1,000 sq ft that wasn't counted i.e. the basement
> > and most people made extensive use of that extra space.
>
> Not in Southern California (where I'm from and have spent most of my life).
> :) But you're right, we did have a basement in the house in Denver (where I
> spent some time growing up). There's a cellar in our house now, but it's
> only suitable for storage, and rooms are allocated to each flat.

I moved from Connecticut to Texas and of course the basement disappeared
in the move. I did notice when shopping around however that the average
square footage in the houses without basements is higher then in houses
with basements so it seems that the overall useable space is comparable
i.e. 1,00 sq ft with 1,00 sq ft basement vs. 2,000 sq ft and no
basement.

>
> > > If I wanted those things, I wouldn't live in the middle
> > > of the city. I'm quite happy with our balcony overlooking
> > > the water.
>
> > If you did want those things and moved outside the city
> > to get them, how much more income would it require?
> > That would be a standard of living thing in my book. If
> > you could get that outside the city on the same income
> > then that would be a comparable standard of living.
>
> None, depending on how far out we moved, of course. Property prices plummet
> outside of Copenhagen. Of course, then one has to be willing to commute
> about an hour each way, if one still works in the city. It's worth it to a
> lot of people. And, of course, the train service is excellent and some
> people do commute about two hours each way by train. I wouldn't do it, but
> I mostly like living in the city (besides, the spiders are bigger and more
> plentiful in the country :)).

I used to commute about an hour each way before I started working from
home full time. The 20' commute down the hall to the sunny window office
with the cat on the windowsill is quite and improvement over the hour
drive to the windowless concrete data dungeon.

Usually you trade spiders for rats when you move to a city from the
country. Perhaps not an issue there.

>
> > Well again it's a question of options. Obviously a
> > workshop is not important to you and the city
> > experience is. The question is would the house with
> > workshop outside the city be affordable if you were
> > to want it, or would it be prohibitively expensive?
>
> It's absolutely available and affordable.

Good, it seem in some of the smaller and more densely populated
countries there is very little space available and what space is
available is quite expensive.

>
> > It's not a question of what you want there, it's really
> > a question of if I were going to live there would I be
> > able to maintain my current standard of living there
> > with a comparable job to my current one?
>
> Not knowing what you do for a living, I can't say. Some professions --
> lawyers, doctors, etc. -- which can be particularly high paid in the US are
> not as well paid here.

Hmmm, I'm starting to like what I hear... :)

>
> > Most everyone who lives a decent amount above poverty
> > has a good quality of life, but gauging the actual standard
> > of living is a bit more difficult. What is the cost of routine
> > items in terms of hours of work? That seems to be the best
> > way to gauge the standard of living. How many hours of
> > work does it take to buy common item X in each country.
>
> I'm sure those figures are available online -- I don't have them to hand,
> and I'm in something of a rush to get out of here (the American Women's Club
> is having its annual Christmas Bazaar, and I, for some bizarre reason,
> volunteered -- anyone in the area should come out to Copenhagen
> International School today or tomorrow for lots of good stuff :)). I'd
> expect the UN to list those types of figures, since they also list quality
> of life statistics.

The only other country I have any experience with is Canada since I like
to go to Montreal for the Jazz festival for vacation. I've noticed that
the cost of most everything I see there, once you do the exchange rate
conversion is just about the same as that item in the US. Canada is
probably not the best comparison to the smaller countries in Europe that
likely import more of their goods.

>
> > > The point, which perhaps I wasn't making clearly
> > > enough, is that Danes travel. A lot. *All* of the
> > > Danes I've met, from all walks of life, travel
> > > far more than any of my contemporaries in San Diego.
>
> > That does seem to be typical of a lot of countries. It
> > seems to have some correlation to the size of the country,
> > the US is pretty large and many people just vacation somewhere
> > else within the US. With smaller countries people are far more
> > likely to travel and vacation out of country.
>
> There's that, certainly. And, of course, Danes have beent travelers back to
> the Vikings. Seriously, though, most of my contemporaries didn't travel
> much within the US, either, apart from the occasional jaunt up or down the
> coast, or, occasionally, Las Vegas. So I think it's more than just choosing
> to travel within the US.

Probably, I don't travel a lot either. My "big" vacations when I lived
in Connecticut were my July trips to the Jazz festival in Montreal since
it was only a 5 hr drive.

>
> > So, 45-45% taxes + union dues + 25% VAT tax on
> > everything? Still very high.
>
> It is. The VAT's the highest in Europe. Denmark is one of the most
> expensive places in the world to live, with Copenhagen currently topping the
> list for most expensive city, having edged out Tokyo.

I'm not sure I really get that big about being the most expensive place
to live. If the cost of living is higher, the wages should also be
higher which would mean it's not more expensive. If it were truly more
expensive then only the wealthy people and those with the highest paid
jobs would be able to live there and the less wealthy would be relegated
to the outlying areas.

>
> > VAT may be roughly equivalent to sales tax, but US
> > sales tax is significantly lower (4-8% typically) and
> > does not apply to food.
>
> It applies to certain types of food, and alcohol and tobacco are taxed at a
> significantly higher rate (but they are here, too, although the booze tax
> dropped ... last year ... I think).

Correct, I didn't specify unprepared food (including my home brew
supplies, whoo hoo!). Restaurant food is taxed, but still at the
relatively low 4-8% sales tax.

>
> > Clearly in a socialist country
>
> Denmark is a constitutional monarchy, and works in much the same way that
> the US, as a constitutional republic, does.

Ok, but it follows the socialist model of government provided health
care and a substantial social welfare / safety net correct? That's
really what I mean as a lot of countries that follow that model
technically have varying underlying government structures.

>
> > there is not the stratification seen in the US, but those
> > in the middle in the US as far as I can tell the standard
> > of living is higher. If you are at the bottom in the US
> > certainly you'd be better off in Denmark, and if your
> > at the top in the US your likely far better off in the US.
>
> Look at it this way: take the US, lop off say the highest 10% earners and
> lowest 10% earners and you have a good indication of how Denmark works.
> Those with the highest incomes are taxed, unmercifully, to help support
> those who can't earn as much.

Ok, the standard "steal from the rich to feed the poor" which I find
fundamentally unfair. And no, I don't believe that Bill Gates with his
billions should be taxed at a higher rate than I am. I favor a single
tax rate for all with no exclusions, credits, etc. Probably a cutoff at
the poverty level though.

> The American part of me howls about this, but
> I see the good it does and I appreciate that people really are taken care of
> here. You have to work really hard to slip through the cracks, and I
> appreciate that there are far fewer homeless people, with no options, than I
> see in US cities.

Are there really fewer homeless, or is it just more visible in the US
since the US is quite large, but the homeless are generally concentrated
in the larger cities where they are more visible? What is the comparison
by percentage of total population?

Again, Canada might not be the best comparison, but it's the only one
where I have some personal experience and in my trips to Montreal and
also one trip to Toronto, I saw just as many homeless panhandlers as I
see in a typical US city. You almost never see any homeless /
panhandlers in the smaller town in the US. They probably migrate to the
cities where the take from panhandling is better.

>
> > I don't think labor law experience in either country will
> > really give you the big picture since I believe the bulk of
> > that work relates to the lower end of the employment spectrum.
>
> You're wrong about that. "Labor law" doesn't just include working with
> unions; it includes the whole spectrum of employment law -- the firm I
> worked for dealt exclusively with the employers (meaning we didn't take
> individual employees as clients).

Ok.

>
> > Certainly in the US the upper ends of the employment world
> > are generally not union and there isn't a lot of labor law to do.
> > It sounds like most everything over there is union so I guess
> > on that side the labor law covers a more complete spectrum.
>
> Unions in DK cover roughly 80% of the working world: blue collar, white
> collar and pretty much everything in between -- including doctors, lawyers
> and other workers who, in the US, would never think of bargaining
> collectively.

I've avoided unions like the plague in my working life and generally
feel I have been better off for it. In the one place I did work that was
partly union, we in the non union side generally got whatever the union
had negotiated anyway, except for one year where the union was raising a
stick and negotiation were dragging out. In that case after some delay
we got a raise package which ended up being better than what the union
eventually settled for.

>
> > My question is if you had desires like I do for a house on
> > a bit of land outside the city and a car, would that be
> > affordable on the salary from a decent job, or would
> > it be priced out of reach? Would I be able to afford that
> > lifestyle on the salary of a computer system manager for
> > a large bank, or would I have to be a doctoror lawyer
> > or something?
>
> You'd be golden.

Good to know. I'll have to visit some time. My problem is I just don't
have any ambition to travel by myself.

>
> > > Your disdainful little comments about "socialism,"
> > > both in DK and in California, have been duly noted.
>
> > Well, I'm not sure how else to refer to it. Would you feel
> > better if I kept referring to the US as a capitalist country?
> > I'm not sure how to make comparisons between the two
> > systems without referencing them. Is there a word you prefer
> > to socialist when referencing the political system in Denmark
> > or Europe? Certainly from what (little) knowledge I have of
> > that system, I have the impression that the capitalist system is
> > better. I'm not trying to bash your system, I'm trying to determine
> > if my impression is valid. It seems that the answer to which is better
> > depends on where you fall in the employment spectrum.
>
> Ooh, not "my" system. :) Yes, there are social systems in place here, but
> I hesitate to call Denmark a socialist country. As the spousal unit is
> quick to point out (and I mentioned above), DK is a constitutional monarchy.
> It really isn't so different from the US. Denmark is home to a number of
> multi-national companies, and is certainly not lagging behind in capitalist
> work ethic.

See my comments above for what I was really getting at.

>
> > Just a bit. But it's interesting to me. I was just more than
> > a bit shocked at the food prices you originally posted (including
> > the non organic chicken) and was wondering how people
> > survived with those prices and 25% tax on top of it. I was
> > just at my local grocery store looking at $1.79/lb beef brisket
> > and $1.99/lb boneless chicken, both without additional tax.
>
> That was non-organic, whole *turkey*, not chicken. Turkey isn't eaten in
> here like it is in the US. I've only just started to see turkey parts in
> stores since I've been here. I can *order* turkey at the butcher, but it's
> not something they keep in stock. The simple answer, of course, is that
> people purchase most of their meet at the grocery store. Most folks I know
> go to the organic butchers when they have a special occasion to celebrate,
> although I suppose there are some folks who go more regularly than others.
> If we had a second income, I'd probably go more often, but I'd still balk at
> paying $30USD for a chicken every week.
>
> Anyway, I'm going to be late. The discussion has, indeed, been interesting.
> -j

I shop from time to time at Central Market which is a high end market.
I'd probably shop there more often if it was a bit closer to me. They
are of course more expensive than my local grocery store and they have a
good selection of the free range / organic / wild caught items. Even so
they don't have $30 chickens that I've noticed, probably more like $20,
although my attention is usually focused on the lamb selection. I
recently found out about a local farm (about 10 miles away) that has
lamb at their farm stand and I have to go investigate soon.

Pete C.
.

Relevant Pages

  • OT The costs of the Olympics
    ... kicked about a bit was the cost for a city or country in hosting this ...
    (rec.music.opera)
  • Re: To pan
    ... expenses. ... language. ... city is good. ... Most foreign students live with others from their own country in shared ...
    (rec.travel.usa-canada)
  • Re: To pan
    ... expenses. ... city is good. ... Most foreign students live with others from their own country in shared ...
    (rec.travel.usa-canada)
  • How do i add a total column for each row? - caliguy1979
    ... SUM(CASE WHEN Type='SALES' THEN COST END) AS SALES, ... SUM(CASE WHEN Type='Expenses' THEN COST END) AS Expenses, ... GROUP BY COUNTRY WITH ROLLUP ...
    (microsoft.public.sqlserver.olap)
  • Rare Entries Contest MSB63 begins
    ... Name a city where the modern Olympic Games have been held ... the number of entrants ... "Country" means an independent country. ... what you cite must already have existed before the contest was ...
    (rec.puzzles)
Loading