Re: leadership or followship?


"Bill Kambic" <wkambic@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:vtqnn39879bkhfsp30g3ui3mfj7bjc2asj@xxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 13:10:55 -0500, "jsaranac" <jsalacious@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I looked up "altruism" and it's interesting to me that there is included,
a
particular definition for animals:
1.. Zoology Instinctive behavior that is detrimental to the individual
but
favors the survival or spread of that individual's genes, as by benefiting
its relatives.

Yes, but is this not the polar opposite of human "altruism" as
customarily used (a voluntary act for which no recompense is
expected)? The animal is NOT offering a voluntary "sacrifice" but
acting IAW it's genetic destiny.

If a weaker prey animal such as a deer or a horse does not try its hardest
to escape a predator, "knowing" that its death will allow others to
escape,
that would be a form of altruism to me.

How would the deer "know" that its death would have such an effect?

Or a mother cub protecting a child
where the odds are pretty good that it's going to lose. I don't think
necessarily that it is a separate, conscious thought in animals -- but
then
maybe we only think it is, with us as well. Maybe it's really just
instinct
that we with our brains have overanalyzed. So I do think that animals can
be altruistic, if only as a form of conditioning.

No, from your definition, above, "conditioning" is not a player. It's
obeying an instinct.

I would think that an instinctive behavior that's detrimental to
individual survial might create some tension in the animal. But I'd
be willing to bet a paint pony that millions of years of genetics
(which have formed that instinct) will win out in most cases.

Unless, of course, that instinct has been weakened by domestication or
taming by humans. Or perhaps even accepting close association of
humans.

Which is why conclusions from observations of domestic animals must be
tempered just as conclusions from observations of zoo animals (or lab
animals) must be tempered.

I hear what you're saying, but I wonder how much behavior of humans which we
call altruistic is not actually motivated by instinct, as well. We are just
adept at rationalizing it.


.

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