Re: Toss up 2: Straying engaged


RPM1 wrote:

> Here's what I said in the very first post in this thread:
>
> <begin quote>
> Definition: "Engaged" - The horse assumes a posture, (withers raised,
> the pelvis tips under so that the point of the buttock is lowered and
> brought forward), and a willingness that allows the horse to move easily
> in any direction.
>
> 1. Can a horse be trained to stay "engaged" without intervention by the
> rider? (During the training the rider is allowed to help the horse
> become engaged and correct it when it loses engagement. Once the
> training is complete the horse the horse no longer needs correction.)
>
> 2. If the answer to 1 is yes, then how is it done? Please avoid terms
> such as "correct" or "proper" as they tend to signal "hand waiving".
> Quotes are welcome, but be prepared to answer questions about the quote.
> <end quote>
>
> So number 2, "how to", is clearly on the table and has been since the
> beginning of this thread.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we agree that it IS possible for a
horse to stay "engaged" without intervention by the rider, then the
"how to" seems self-evident....the rider must sit still, in unity with
the horse and do nothing to disturb the horse's state. Isn't that so?
What are you looking for?

johdug:
> > However, I must admit that if all we do is theorize and talk about
> > "ideals", it tends to become tiresome and superfluous. I would think
> > that readers/participants would also find it dull if we don't get to
> > the actual "how to" that affects everyday riding.

Patrick:
> See above.

See WHAT above? You have asked if it is possible to ride an engaged
horse without intervention. It seems that we agree that, yes, it is
possible. If the rider is NOT to intervene, it requires a skilled
rider who can sit on the horse WITHOUT messing up the state of
self-carriage. So what's left to discuss? There IS no "how to" if the
rider isn't supposed to intervene. The "how to" was done earlier by
the training which achieved the state of self-carriage. We aren't
discussing how we got to that point...yet. Or are you willing to tell
us something new on "how to" ride a horse that is engaged without
intervening?

re johdug:
> > Again, I think it MAY be possible, but it is hard for me to believe
> > that even the best rider in the world would ride a horse on a figure
> > eight with not even the slightest half-halt. Are you saying that you
> > think it IS possible? And, if so, do you think it is far more easy to
> > acheive or see than what I am thinking?
>
Patrick:
> Yes it is possible and it's not that hard. No matter what dressage
> school you lean towards, this task is well within the realm of possibility.

And why can you say this with such confidence?

> The half-halt is not something that is supposed to become a permanent
> fixture. It's a training tool. It's meant to be used less and less.
> If you think that even the best rider in the world can't ride a figure
> eight without resorting to a half halt, then you must think that Grand
> Prix riders are constantly half-halting.

Absolutely. I think good riders half halt a LOT more than beginner
riders. As a matter of fact, I believe that good riders could do a
HUNDRED half-halts while riding a horse during a schooling session.
These half-halts DO NOT have to include any restricting use of the
rein. But, yes, I DO think that good Grand Prix riders give MANY, MANY
half-halts during a ride. The better I become as a rider, the more I
use effective half-halts through my seat to speak to my horse.

When you ride, Patrick, would you say that you do half-halts? Would
you say that you do 10? Less than 10? More than 10?

> I'm surprised that you feel this way.

I'm surprised that YOU are surprised! Really! It's pretty standard
"classical teaching" that riders should do plenty of half halts while
schooling a horse. Are you unaware of this?

> The half halt is a rebalancing maneuver. Why would you need to
> rebalance a horse unless it is out of balance?

Because the average ride on a dressage horse puts him in moments where
his balance will become compromised. Changes of gait, changes within
the gait, changes of direction. A Grand Prix rider goes from an
extended canter to a collected canter. Do you think that this can be
done without a half-halt? Or from a collected canter to an
extended...do you think this should be done without a half-halt?

I am VERY curious as to the answer you have for those last two
questions.

> The "how to" has been open game since the start of this second thread.

Not to my recollection it hasn't. I asked you this (copied and
pasted):

"We have also explained, that should the horse not respond to just the
rider's seat alone, then the leg aids or the rein aids or a combination

of them all may have to come into play. But, as soon as the state of
"balance/forward" is resumed by the horse, the hand becomes immediately

passive again. The leg stops making requests as well. I would assume,
Patrick that you agree with everything I just said above, but what
seems to be the "open" question is in regards to the contact.

I continue to be confused as to why you think we are so different in
our methods. It seems to me that the only difference in our riding has

to do with the use of the reins. And I don't fully understand how you
use yours. You say you use them at times, but then you indicate that
you ride on a "slack rein" almost the whole time. Do I understand this

correctly?

I think we both completely agree one should discontinue the aids when
the horse is in this balanced state.

To me, discontinuing the aids does not mean abandoning the horse, but
to maintain the contact and to do as little as possible. How does this

mesh with your thought process?"

(End quote)

Now, Patrick... I don't feel the need for you to respond to that yet,
if you prefer to wait until this first part of the discussion is over,
but I did want to remind you that I HAVE brought up the "How to"
question of how we arrive at engagement and you chose not to respond as
it was too early to discuss it, in your opinion. I'm willing to wait
if you choose.

re:
> > What might you seek to learn? Or are you, like me, soaking up any
> > tidbit that is new and worth checking out?

Patrick:
> Anything is fair game.

Well, in that case, perhaps you DO want to respond to my copied and
pasted remarks and questions above.

johdug-jen

.