Re: Ebay Diamonds

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:24:59 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry papa smurf
<DSOldham@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Ok so now that is out there. I have been shopping around. I know
what I like when I see it. I will list the diamond specs that I have
chosen below. When I compare prices, same diamond specs, from the net
to a store retailer it really makes a significant difference in price
(as I am sure you are all aware).

Color: DEF (Colorless)
Clarity: VS1 and up
Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0
Certified GIA
Cut: Excellent

I have seen diamonds, with the specs above, on-line retailing at 6-7k
less than what I see them in the stores.

yup. Depends on the stores. In the old days, everyone sold diamonds for a
retail markup over wholesale that fell somewhere betwee 2 to 3 times the
wholesale cost. This is still the business model for much of the retail world
Everything from furnature to clothing to appliances, etc. Some things,
especially inexpensive items, get marked up a much higher percentage, so the
earnings per square foot of the retail space justify displaying the things. But
the internet has changed that, as I explained. Many retailers trying to be more
competative, have had to lower their margins (some raise the markup on the
mountings and everything other than the center diamond in order to still make
some profit on the sale), while others, especially the most visible, with the
most advertising and highest reputation (think Tiffany, Cartier, and many more),
have no reason to lower their profit margin. So comparing what you can find on
the internet diamond market with stores like that, you can often save as much as
half. For that savings, though, you loose the ability to sit with a sale
person, looking at multiple stones and having the fine nuances between them
explained. Your ability to make a choice is much more limited on the net,
simply because you're buying by the numbers and stats on a cert, rather than
based on the actual look of the stone, which often can be quite a bit more
subtle in variations and appeal, than the numbers themselves indicate.

A few comments on your chosen quality. Just my opinions as a longtime jeweler
and gemologist, and others may disagree. Well, Ok. Fair warning. Not just a
few comments. I get wordy when I do this, and this'll get long. But read it
please, carefully. there's 35 years of experience and training behind the
following tome... (grin)

Color: DEF (Colorless)

Color at DEF is wonderful. Color is something that affects the look of the
stone at any distance, so if you can see the stone at all, what you see is
affected by the color. But you pay for this, and pay quite a bit. Remember
that the color grades are placed as close together as the human eye can, with
training and ideal lighting, distinguish. Once a stone is mounted, while a
trained and experienced jeweler will see the difference between a D color stone
and a G color one, it's not actually all that great, and in most light, the
average consumer, even with stones side by side, would be hard pressed to see
much difference. And just because one stone is a slightly softer and warmer
tone (the lower color grade) doesn't mean it's any less beautiful. Dropping
down from a DEF to a G or H can save you thousands, and if you spend that on a
slightly larger size instead, you might find you prefer that difference. This
is the sort of decision where looking at several stones in the company of an
expert who is trying to earn his/her profit margin, not only can help you, but
can help justify that profit margin.

Clarity: VS1 and up

Clarity at VS1 and up. OK, that's nice. But why? Remember that clarity grades
of SI and better mean the inclusions in the stone are no longer visible to the
naked eye, at least in the face up position, which is what affects the look.
Inclusions get a bad rap. If highly included, a stone can indeed look poor, but
if you think of inclusions as the features mother nature left there, evidence of
the way the stone was formed, and distinguishing birthmarks that make a stone
completely unique from all other stones, then the appeal or lack of it of a
stone due to it's inclusions changes quite a bit. In some cases, inclusions can
be fascinating all by themselves. Some are just plain cracks and fissures,
sure. But others are individual different diamond crystals imbedded in the
stone, or crystals of other minerals (garnet, for example) in the diamond. These
can be quite fascinating, and hardly a cause to denegrate the desireability of a
given stone. Because diamond sellers (from DeBeers down to the jewelers and
everyone in between) wish to sell more costly diamonds, the whole rarity factor
gets a lot of air play. Very clean stones are indeed more rare than stones with
a few more inclusions. You pay a LOT for that rarity. But it's not something
you can actually see in normal use. You need a magnifier or microscope to see
the difference. Most consumers, shown a VS2 and a VVS2 (much cleaner) can't see
even the inclusions in the VS2 without help, and the difference between the
stones ends up having to be taken on faith. So the sales person says this high
clarity stone is a better stone and costs more. True. But better for whom? if
you're buying rarity, then indeed it's better for you. If, however, you're
buying an engagement diamond who's purpose is to adorn, and to symbolize a
relationship, and all the rest it's going to mean, then it's possible rarity or
the finances attached to that, are not very important, or shouldn't be. I'm
not saying you should buy a highly included stone. But take the time to look at
clarity options, and try to tune out the sales people who tell you a higher
clarity is always better. it's not. It's more costly, which is better for the
sales people. it's only better for you if you actually can appreciate it and
it means something to you other than some ephemeral perception of value.

Remember, by the way, that diamonds, for all their hype, are not actually all
that rare a gemstone. They're mined on every continent on earth, by the
millions of carats per year. While not common, and certainly not common in the
much rarer larger gems and fine qualities, they are still common enough that
the internet has been able to turn them into a commodity with almost standard
market pricing. Just try to find that sort of price structure with any of the
truely rare gem materials.

While I'll now backtrack a bit and agree with you that a VS1 stone is a very
nice and pretty diamond, I'd advise being more flexible here. Some of the SI1
stones are also very pretty, for less money, and the savings then can go to a
diamond better in other respects, or a nicer mounting, or perhaps towards the
home or furnature you and your new bride might need.

As to BETTER than a VS1, I'd actually advise against going better than that.
Diamonds in an engagement ring are subject to substantial wear and tear. Despite
the common perceptions, diamond is NOT indestructable. In fact, if you look
carefully at almost any diamond that's been worn for a few years, you'll find
minor abrasions, tiny nicks and chips on the girdle, or other evidence that the
stone is not brand new. Most of these things are often tiny and very hard to
see, and you need a loupe or microscope to see them. But they all affect the
clarity grade. Things that small on the surface of the stone don't much affect
the grade of, say, a VS2 or lower. Some few of them might knock a VS1 down to a
VS2.

But in the VVS grades, it becomes almost a certainty that eventually, your
bride's VVS1 or VVS2 or better diamond will no longer be that grade, but a VS1
or lower unless you get it recut. The difference in appearance, durability, or
utility as diamond jewelry is none at all. The only difference with these high
clarity grades is that they are rarer, and cost a lot more. You get nothing but
the added cost and rarity for your money with them, and you'll have the
assurance that this distinction will most likely be lost in time. This is not
true with the more modest clarity grades (VS1 and lower), which have a fair
chance of retaining their quality over time unless they suffer really
significant damage somehow (which also can happen, but that's what insurance is
for). My recommendation would be for a clarity between SI1 and VS1. No
higher. And if SI1, you want to look at it with a microscope or loupe and see
if you actually like the stone. They can vary in appeal, which the cert won't
show.

Carrots: 1.5 - 2.0

"Carrots" are a tasty root vegetable. Carats are a gem weight. 5 of them to a
gram to be exact. (and just to complete the set, "karats" is a measure of gold
purity)

For many women, more of these puppies seems to be better. Go figure. (grin) It
may be worth considering a larger stone for a given price, by cutting some other
less visible quality aspect. Or perhaps not. But something to consider. Do
note that popular demand for given sizes is driven by the group mentality and
DeBeers marketing. 30 years ago, most engagement rings were under a half carat
in size, and brides were quite happy with that. Now it seems DeBeers has
convinced a lot of people they need to spend a whole boatload of money on the
diamond, and it HAS to be over a carat, or more than that if you really want to
keep up with the Joneses. OK. Fine. Just understand that this desire is
driven by one of the most persistant and successful advertisng/marketing
campaigns in history. In 1900, few people got married with much more than a
plain gold wedding band. THAT is the real tradition. The wealthy often did
more, as usual, but that was more the exception than the rule. Even among the
wealthy then, the idea of a diamond engagement ring was pretty unusual. The
difference between then and now is, as I said, marketing and the fact that the
public, like any good flock of sheep, has followed the DeBeers prodding into now
insisting that they want these things. It's real enough, of course, that even
when we know it's a contrived and manufactured desire without a true historical
root (other than the brief 20th century), we still want em, and the brides want
them, and will be disappointed if we don't play along. Fine. Just understand
what all your hard earned cash is actually paying for here.

Certified GIA

See prior discussion on coice of labs. I like GIA and prefer them or AGS as
well.

Cut: Excellent

This one gets into one of the great areas of vagueness in diamonds. Good
cutting affects, as does color, everything you see about the stone, at virtually
any distance. In some respects, it's one of the most important aspects of the
quality of a diamond or other gem, yet unlike the other "C", on the GIA scale at
least, it doesn't actually have a precise grade. That's unfortunate. The AGS
certs DO give cutting a grade you can use to compare one stone with another,
which is one reason I like their certs. But even then, really judging cut from
a piece of paper is difficult at best. The quality of cutting is the result of
a number of factors, from craftsmanship to optical performance of the gem.

The basics of cut grading go like this:

If the largest possible round brilliant cut diamond is fashioned from the rough
stone, the result will have a larger than desireable table facet, shallower than
desired crown facets, and a somewhat deeper than desire pavilion. It will
maximize both weight and width for that crystal (which is what determines the
cost per carat for that given color and clarity.) The result is that a stone
cut to the ideal proportions, with the right angles and table size, etc etc,
will be slightly smaller in diameter, and weigh a bit less. Same end cost for
the stone, but because it weighs less, the cost per carat is then higher. That's
the simple economics of the proportions. Add in the factors of higher levels of
craftsmanship costing a bit more, and you get why better cutting makes a stone
more expensive.

your choices are these. You can buy a stone with poorer cutting, sometimes
called a spread stone, and what you get will be, and look, larger. Some people
prefer that, and for them this increase in diameter is more important than the
fact that doing this makes the stone less optically efficient, and makes it not
as good looking. For these folks, big is everything. The better cut stone
will be brighter looking, with more of a sense of "movement" or scintillation
and sparkle as the light changes, the viewer or the stone moves, or the like.
For my money and preference, at least, I want the cutting to be as good as
possible. As a craftsperson, I find it uncomfortable that someone might take a
material for which the price, percieved value, and marketplace is pretty much
manufactured, and then not at least give it the best possible look for the
material. I know that in the real world, that's not a position everyone will
agree with. But I'm a craftsman. Good cutting is for me a matter of ethics on
the part of the cutter, even if it's hard to really defend that view. Ethics
has little to do with it, and craftsmanship usually doesn't either. it's
economics, in the end. But my preference for good cutting remains. Personally,
I'd pretty much insist on a stone that has proportions close enough to the
theoretical ideals as to be able to be called an "ideal cut" These stones will
maximize total light reflection to the viewer and the other various optical
properties that we like to see in a diamond. So I'd not only ask for an
"excellent" cut description, I'd want an "ideal cut", at the least.

At the least? yeah, there's more. In recent years (mostly the last decade or
so), cutters have become even more rigorous in just how well they can do their
job. At the tiniest level, totally exact fact placement isn't something that
affects the overall optics of the stone. But getting every last facet
absolutely perfectly placed, well past the precision that used to be considered
the norm, is now possible, and gives us stones sometimes called "super cuts".
Many of these are brand name products, such as the "hearts and arrows" cuts, so
named for the very regular patterns in the reflections that can be seen in them
under specialized lightly. At normal viewing distances, the usual ideal cut
diamond does not look any different from the super cuts. But if your bride (or
you) take a really close look at the super cuts, perhaps with a loupe, the high
precision becomes notable, and a thing to perhaps marvel at, since it's still,
in the end, hand craftsmanship. These cuts aren't the product of some soulless
computer driven manufacturing line. They're the work of extremely fine diamond
cutting craftspeople, working to standards and possibilities that didn't exist
20 years ago. For me, at least, that's something to sit up and take notice of.
They do cost more, of course. But I think it's something worth considering.
There are several variants of the super cuts. Some are the standard 58 facet
round brilliant executed with extreme precision. (like the Hearts and Arrows
brand). Others play with the cut geometry itself, usually adding additional
facets to increase the complexity and uniqueness of the stones.

I work day to day with a lot of diamonds. I tend, like anyone, to take notice
of the nicer ones. The ideal cuts that cross my path get a nod of approval.
"That's a nice stone". Some respect, some appreciation of the fine workmanship,
and then I get on with it, set the stone, or do whatever else needs doing, and
go to the next job. But the super cuts that go past just being high precision,
perhaps with interesting new cutting patterns, or more complexity, now THOSE
catch my real attention. At least for a bit longer. Those are the ones I
might show to someone else in the shop to share the appreciation of a unique and
interesting gem. This is a distinction perhaps worth noticing. As I said
earlier, in the jewelry industry we treat diamonds as a commodity these days.
They're common enough that every jeweler has many of them, and any goldsmith
works with many of them daily. For us jaded types to stop and take notice now
and then requires a gem that steps beyond the ordinary. Really fine color and
clarity and cutting and size can all do it, of course. But for me, at least,
the really fine cutting is the most likely to get my nod of appreciation. Take
that for whatever it's worth. Maybe just me. But I know others who share that
view. Costs more, of course. Like anything. But personally, I think they're
worth it, once you've decided that a diamond, any diamond, is worth paying such
prices for.



I will definitely look into Blue Nile, and some of the other sites
listed. If anyone has any other reputable on-line store suggestions
this would be very helpful.

Do check out the other site I mentioned. I've not dealt with them in a number
of years, and it's founder Ray Elsey sadly died earlier this year. But the last
time I helped someone get stones from him, perhaps six years ago, I found his
pricing to be substantially lower than most other internet sellers. Possible
simply because he didn't own the inventory. Back then, his diamond lists were
imported directly from the computer files of the importing and cutting firms he
was getting them from. So he could sell for a surprisingly low markup,
sometimes as little as 10 percent. I have, of course, no idea if this is still
the case. That low a margin makes it hard for even an internet business to stay
afloat (and we won't talk about what sites like that do to the rest of us in
this business...) and times have changed a lot since then. But I'll bet they
still give you a very good price. Knowledgeable people who're interested in
doing right by their customers.

Blue Nile, well, I also know them. Or at least the folks in their workshop.
Nice people (all goldsmiths, are by definition, wonderful people, of course,
unless they piss me off and I say otherwise... (grin)) They've built a large
and active business in relatively few years. Offer good value, again hard for
many "brick and morter" stores to compete with. I doubt they are quite as low
as tradeshop.com, but I can't really say for sure.

One oddity of the diamond trade, though. pay attention to the cert details,
like registration numbers. If looking at stones with certs, you may find that
several sellers will be trying to sell you the same stone, since all are doing
the same thing, communicating with the wholesaler who happens to have that
stone. With larger rare stones, you see this from time to time, and it makes it
especially easy to see who's giving you the best price. 2 carat is large
enough you might run into that situation...

And one final note. Please don't totally blow your whole budget on the
diamond. Save some for a good, well made, well designed mounting. Great
furnature in a well decorated living room isn't so enjoyable if the roof leaks
and the heating doesn't work. The setting has a lot to do with how long your
bride will be wearing the ring with enjoyment. And don't assume that always
more costly is always better. You can get mountings that are so totally
encrusted with tiny diamonds everywhere that there's not much metal left holding
the ring together. Flashy, but fragile. Others with some of this effect may be
done much better, equally flashy, and still be honoring the engineering and
metalurgy that makes a ring last a long time.

Hope all tht helps.

Peter Rowe


.

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