pH for steeping character grains (was Re: Therminator, Ferminator, and Cloudy Beer!)

When I asked for advice on how to keep my beer from clouding, it
sparked a discussion between Paul and Thomas about pH and its effects
on grain steeping (quoted below). I read it a couple of times, but I
still don't understand what is the best process change I should bring
away from this discussion. Should I change the order of steeping and
adding DME? Should I adjust the pH of my water?

My specialty grain is about two pounds of Crystal 40L.

Paul> Well, you might own some fancy equipment but your steps are out
Paul> of order. Grain steeping should be occuring before adding DME.
Paul> Also, you don't mention what type of grain you are using. Some
Paul> grains require mashing to convert starches to sugars, while
Paul> other grains like crystal malts can be steeped.

Thomas> IMHO, grain steepting should be after the DME. There is a
Thomas> horrible risk of tannin extraction among other flavor
Thomas> alterations. Consider the whole grain brewing process and you
Thomas> realize that most specialty malt is extract right along side
Thomas> the base grains during mashing.

Paul> Tannin extraction could be a possible issue in too much water
Paul> where the excess water would buffer the acid contribution of the
Paul> malt. If you keep the water minimal this shouldn't be an issue.

Thomas> The pH is mostly what matters. If you buffer the water, you
Thomas> will be fine, if you just add water and steep, you may get
Thomas> undesirable results, but at least, the amount of specialty
Thomas> grain is usually small, so it probably won't ruin the beer
Thomas> unless it is a roasted malt. I don't think steeping will
Thomas> cause the reaction with calcium in the water to create a
Thomas> significant amount of phosphoric acid, but I could be wrong on
Thomas> that point.

Paul> You're correct that it's mostly pH that matters but it seems you
Paul> have the rest backwards. If the pH rises too high, you'll start
Paul> to extract tannins. Darker grains such as roasted barley, black
Paul> patent, etc. will actually do a better job acidifying the water
Paul> than lighter adjuncts. Excess calcium carbonate will buffer
Paul> acidity which could cuase pH to be too high, again rasing the
Paul> risk of tannin extraction.

Thomas> No, I didn't get it backward, I just left the reason implied.
Thomas> The dark roasted grains tend to be very harsh when extracted
Thomas> in water alone and do much better extracted in wort or in a
Thomas> mash. That has been my experience, albiet, over 10 years ago
Thomas> ... I haven't brewed extract since early 1996.
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