Re: Maundy coinage?

Mr. Jaggers <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:

Programs, programs, can't tell the players without a program.

Thanks, I wish it were all as clearcut as you have attempted to make it, but
common usage dictates otherwise.

Common usage gives us absurdities of having highland regiments in what
is called the "English Army." I don't think there is a fully clear
definition of all of these things, but one can try to avoid the absurd
and the possibly offensive.

Your statement that James I of England and James VI of Scotland were one and
the same person is correct,

No, I did not call him James of England. He was James VI of Scotland,
Elizabeth had been queen of England, France and Ireland, but James VI
of Scotland became James of Great Britain, France and Ireland when
he inherited the throne of England. He remained James VI of Scotland.

but then you imply that James I was already king
of something called Great Britain even before the Act of Union.

Yes he was. The coins say "Iacobus M.B., Fra et Hib D.G. Rex." or
something to that effect. The "M.B." stands for "Magna Britannia"
which is Latin for "Great Britain."

Call me
dense, but I still don't get it. Any light you can shed on this will be
appreciated.

"Magna Britannia" or "Great Britain" was the name that James VI & I
wanted for Scotland and England together. Since he was King of it,
he had the ability to make it stick. Although the countries remained
largely separate in other respects, the monarchy became attached to
the larger entity of "Great Britain." I believe that the Scottish coins
of the man sometimes called James VII of Scotland actually bear the
legend "Iacobus II Dei Gratia Mag Br Fra et Hib Rex."


But before you respond further, let me see if I can explain it: England and
Scotland, individually sovereign, became de facto united in the person of a
man named James, who was first king of Scotland, but then also picked up the
throne of England due to hereditary issues, but retained their individual
names and sovereignties until 1707, when they officially combined into Great
Britain.

The monarchy became attached to "Great Britain" in 1603. James VI seems
to have kept his number for use in Scotland, but James II of Great
Britain seems to have called himself by the same number everywhere.

Great Britain and Ireland (the latter with diminished enthusiasm, one would
think) officially joined together in 1801 as an entity now calling itself
the United Kingdom of tada, tada, tada, the "tada" part having changed in
both name and political reality over a fairly long period of time.

Two things happened in 1801. One was the removal of France from the
royal titles: this was thought to be increasingly odd at a time when
they were in fact fighting a war for the purpose of restoring someone
else to the French throne. The other was an attempt to solve the
"Irish Question" or "Irish Problem" by making Ireland a theoretically
equal part of a single Kingdom. It didn't work.

Is that about it?

Also, "Albion" is not a name generally known to us American Colonists, and
in fact is often defined as the "Island of Great Britain" in reference
sources.

It is the only word which unambiguously refers to the island containing
England, Wales and Scotland without naming a political entity. It is
archaic, but it lacks the ambiguity that any other name can have.


The French name "Grande Bretagne" is used as such to refer to your
"Albion" to differentiate it from just ordinary "Bretagne", which refers to
the Armorican peninsula, better known as Brittany, an integral part of
France and a former French province.

I would be surprised if the French used "Grande Bretagne" in that way
before 1603. It would be interesting to know what they called it before.

The reason all this has meaning to me is that I try to keep my collection of
"British" coins under the proper headings, and I've come close to giving up.
Help!

What is the particular problem? Is it the E or E* mintmarked coins of
Anne from 1707-1709? Or is it imperial sovereigns from branch mints?
Or coins of Imperial type issued only for colonial use such as the
Britannia fourpence of 1888, or the third and quarter farthings?
Or perhaps the shilling varieties from George VI to Elizabeth II?

Peter.
--
pirwin@xxxxxxx

.

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