Re: I rant, and I step down from my soapbox.


"Brian Oakley" <brianoakley@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:g3i54f07u4@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"Honus" <Honus@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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<snip>

Artful job of snipping, Brian. The context was "forcing" yourselves on
people. The other people that I mentioned have -never- made a coin
related post. They're not part of the "community". They were called in by
someone to bolster that person's religious arguments. What do you do when
you're incapable of fighting your own battles? You hire mercenaries.
Pathetic.

I dont think anyone in their right mind that has read anything Ive posted
in here would believe I would even want to call in "mercenaies" LOL.

It was a figure of speech...and I'll bet I'm not the only one here (if
anyone actually gives a damn) that think it's some sort of coincidence who
shows up, and when. Did you study under the Scientology method of
self-defense? It sure smells like it.

<snip>

Actually I never claimed the Church didnt do that. So I cant be wrong
about that.

I'll concede that point, even though you snipped the reason out. You were
talking about Jesus, while I was talking about the church.

Maybe thats why your so confused about what Im saying.

I was confused on one point, and I freely admitted it. Try it sometime. And
I'm not confused about anything else. (At least I don't think so...but how
would I know? This is all so existential.)


I don't have time to quote the mean-spirited (pun intended) things that
have come from the "mouth of God". Here's a link instead:

Im sure you would rather focus on those.

And I'm sure you'd rather ignore them. Just like you ignored my pointing out
that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he wouldn't "let my people go",
thus giving God an excuse for causing unimaginable suffering and death
throughout Egypt. Don't feel so bad...I don't believe it really happened.
But you do.

See, your perception of what it is to be a Christian is totally
incorrect. Its not about condemnation, its about forgivness. Many
Christians get that wrong as well. That is a sad admission, but I will
make it.

The last thing you need to do is try to educate me about what it is to be
a Christian. I did my time in the trenches as a True Believer. Of course,
I come across people like you all the time who tell me that I was never a
True Christian (tm) in the first place, otherwise I wouldn't hold the
views that I do.

According to the Bible thats exactly right.

More proof that the bible is replete with error.

And you're only giving us part of the picture. It's also about forcing
your social values on the rest of the country based on -your belief- (and
all others be damned) that you're on a mission from God. You don't just
live and let live.

Lets see, is that bigotry bell ringing again?

Really, get those ears checked. That's the -Liberty- Bell, Brian. Is my
statement wrong? All you seem to be able to do is call names.

I'm supposed to take some dead guy's word for it (decades after the
fact) that the Saviour of all Mankind said "(fill in the blank)"?

Maybe you need to read the early church fathers writings, you will see
that what those "dead guys" say has been passed down from generation to
generation and is as accurate as the extant texts of the New Testament.

That's not saying much of anything.

Actually it is. Just their use of Scripture validates the accuracy to
which the Scripture has been passed down through time. It attests to the
authenticiy of the testimony of the Apostles.

Yes, yes...and the willingness of the early Christians to be martyred shows
the veracity of it all, because who would die for a lie, etc. etc. It's too
bad similar arguments are used for nearly any religion one could name. And
the use of scripture does -not- attest to the authenticity of the scripture.
You can't use the Bible to prove the Bible.

One can try, though. That's apparent enough.


I don't think so. No one should be imprisoned for second hand hearsay,
much less doomed to an eternity of burning in Hell. I was born with the
ability to reason; it's what comes naturally.

A God given ability I might add. You were formed in the image of God.
God can and does reason. If you were to be genuine in looking at the
Bible, I dont believe you would say what you are saying.

There's another objection I have. How come when I sin the transgression
is mine to bear and I'll burn in hell for all eternity for the smallestof
sins, but when I do good God gets the credit? That's always bothered me.

It has to do with pride. No one wants to give glory to anyone but himself.
Thats exactly what the Bible teaches.

And the Bible's wrong again. I claim both the bad and the good. That's just
the way it is. I don't do good because I'm made in the image of God.
Actually, God even says so when he told you in Psalms 14:1 that "there is
none that does good", referring of course to non-believers. And I give glory
to plenty of people besides myself; I don't claim it all in the name of Me.
I just don't kneel before them. That's what angers your narcissistic,
megalomaniacal deity. Come on...if your god really does exist, what possible
jolly could he get out of having us bow down before him? If I had bacteria
growing in a petri dish their adoration would mean nothing to me, even if
they had some intellect and I'd somehow given them souls. The relationship
between your omnipotent god and we created beings is even more disparate.


I've read the book, Brian, and countless others on the subject, as well
as wasting countless Sunday mornings and Sunday and Wednesday evenings
listening to commentary on it. You're not dealing with a neophyte here.

Maybe not a neophyte, but certainly one that has never had a relationship
with Jesus Christ.

Ah, there it is...no true Scotsman. I knew it'd come up. You guys can't
stand it when someone on your side falls away from the fold, and so you deny
the prior fellowship altogether. That's shameful.

I'm not going to give that up for "faith". As Twain said, "Faith is
believing what you know ain't so."

Twain also said "It isnt what I dont understand in the Bible that
bothers me. Its what I do understand" or something with similar context.

You ought to unload that gun before you point it at your foot, or take
the shoe off before you put it in your mouth. I'm starting to understand,
now; you don't actually -read-. Otherwise you'd know what Twain meant
when he said that, and you'd also be less of a zealot. If atheists
recruited, their best tool would be the Bible, to paraphrase.

Scripture can be taken out of context by even the most simple minded.

Which has nothing to do with your idiotic attempt to use Twain of all people
to bolster your argument. (By the way...you're paraphrasing Shakespeare.)
And you're also using a pathetic argument to explain away the errancy of the
Bible. Next you'll be telling us that God intentionally makes the scriptures
unclear to non-believers, which is why so much of it doesn't make sense.

Want me to look that one up for you too?

<snip>

Isnt that...hipocracy?? To claim the Bible isnt true then claim to
follow the Biblical injunction? Cant have it both ways. Its either true
or it isnt.

No, it's not hypocracy. I was speaking in terms you'd understand and
relate to, and yes I -can- have it both ways. When the Bible says there's
a city by the name of Bethlehem, I can believe it. When it says that
snakes and donkeys occasionally speak, I can dismiss it. When it says to
honor my mother and father, I can accept it. When it says that it's okay
for Hebrews to buy slaves from countries surrounding their own, I can
dismiss it. When the Bible says to not keep truth hidden by hiding it
under a basket, I can accept it. Get the idea? I'm sure I could find
pearls of wisdom in the Koran if I wanted to. But I don't have to believe
that there's 72 virgins waiting to reward each martyr. Actually, they'd
only be virgins for a short time; eventually they become 72 -wives-.
Maybe the Muslim martyrs will get theirs, after all.

I see, cafeteria Christianity....

Cafeteria Christianity is a derisive term used against theists that take the
parts of the Bible that they like and embrace them while ignoring the tough
parts, the mistakes, the things that they just can't quite get themselves to
agree with. You're not supposed to use the term at me...we made it to use at
you. Furthermore, criticizing me for believing some things in the Bible and
not others is just...stupid. Bear your "argument" in mind, next time you're
watching a movie on TV. Newsflash, Brian...things aren't just black or
white. There are varying shades of gray in between. Go back and reread what
I wrote; I really believe you're capable of grasping it.


If you were to make a real effort to study the early fathers of this
country, then again you would find out exactly what the government was
based on, and will only work with that kind of foundation. When we shift
away from that foundation, our government will crumble, as is evidenced
already by the judiciary already making law insted of interpreting it.

I have spent more time than you can imagine doing just that very thing.
And you're wrong. Read, Brian...and not just what your handlers tell you
or allow you to.

Your really are an arrogant bigot.

No. I'm angry, and with cause. Here's a clue: you don't see me going after
Buddhists. I don't mind being called names, or labeled with pejoratives;
just try to use the right ones. Whatever you do, though, don't call me a
fool. You know what that might get you. (NT enough for you?)

<snip>

I have. There are any number of people/entities that could fit the
bill.

There are few in number actually.

It ought to be narrowed down to a field of one, if it was divinely
inspired. None of this Nostradamus-interpretation type of twisting
meanings so that almost anything can fit the bill.

Id like to see you predict the future.

I predict this will get us nowhere, and will only serve to piss off the
other members of the group that haven't plonked us already. When I'm proven
to have a perfect prediction average, what then? Will you accept me as a
prophet?

Beside...I can point you to some rather scholarly work suggesting that the
book of Revelations was at least in part addressing current events. Search
for Nero and Revelation, for starters. I can also show you where Jesus had a
hard time predicting the future. Ever heard of the Wandering Jew? Jesus said
in Matthew 16:28 that "...there be some standing here, which shall not taste
of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

There's a really, really old Jew out there somewhere. And I'll bet he's
growing impatient.

<snip>

Im not sure what it is you want me to address here. If I addressed
every ridiculous topic in here, Id have to do this professionally. Do
you...have a job??

Missed this the first time...yes, I have a job. That snide little attempt at
getting a dig in on me is beneath you, Brian. :)

You missed the stuff that speaks to your character, Brian...the important
stuff if you want to be taken seriously as an emissary of your Lord.
Except for the stuff about the Jews. Kudos.

I dont seem to have missed anything that needed to be addressed.

There's none so blind as those who will not see. Of course, I'm paraphrasing
from the Old Testament. I'm sorry about that. And I guess it's hypocritical
of me to accept some of the Bible, and not all of it. (Are you starting to
get it?)

<snip>

I can see a fatal lack of trust in a Creator God here. Id much rather
believe him than mans reason.

Knock yourself out; I don't want to stop you, and wouldn't if I could. The
problem is that I know you don't share that sort of sentiment. There's the
entire crux of our differences; you won't let people who don't think like
you alone. And I'm the bigot? You define the word.

Now, do you think I want blessings or cursings? I think you can figure
that out. I dont know where people get the ideas of hate for Jewish
people, other than a very misplaced blame of them for the crucifixion.
We are ALL to blame for that.

I'm not.

Actually yes you are, even if you dont believe it.

Actually, no I'm not.

If that's your burden, you shoulder it. Nothing I've ever done justifies
an eternity in flame. And the thought of a god sacrificing himself to
himself to satisfy a demand for blood atonement that he instituted
himself (and knowing that he's coming back to life in three days anyway)
is just silly. I'd be amazed if I discoverd that anyone I know wouldn't
go through hell for three days in order to give every single human who
ever lived a chance at eternal bliss. I'd do it for my children, and
that's just two individuals; the umpteen billion other people who've
graced this planet would just be gravy. Jesus' sacrifice was no
sacrifice, and I'm not impressed. By the way...that's a really nasty turn
God gave the Jews, knowing how all of this would turn out. Hatred and
abuse for millenia, and the vast majority of them won't even make the cut
when the roll is called up yonder. That's what he meant when he called
them his chosen people? Chosen for what?

You certainly couldnt bear the torment for your own sin, much less the sin
of every human that ever lived. How dare you equate yourself with God. I
hope and pray he forgives you for those words.

I'll do you one better: I'm morally superior to your God. Your god is the
creation of Bronze-age goat herders who thought it was acceptable to own
slaves and treat women badly because they were having their periods. (I'll
provide verses upon request.) And you ignored the entire thrust of my
paragraph. I'm so disappointed.


speaks to other issues, he may or may not be right. Im sure somewhere
along the line you hold positions that might be right, as well as
wrong??

Oh, absolutely. I'm thoroughly embarassed at how totally wrong I've been
about things in the past. See the part above, where I mentioned that I
used to be a true believer, for example.

why he doesnt speak up for himself, I assume he has better things to do
that wasting all his time in here trying to fend of the bigots and
religion haters.

The why did he show up in the first place? And why won't you deny or
affirm your connection with his being here at all?

I have no idea, and I dont need to. Not even to you, your royal highness.

Keep dancing, puppet.

I'm so disappointed that my comment went over your head.

Didnt go over my head at all. I just dont think the kind of bigoted
diatribe youre trying to put on me is worth anything less than a flitting
reply.

And yet you've spent how much time dancing around my remarks? Come on,
Brian...shake the dust off those sandles!

I have plenty of skeletons, as does everyone else. I'll even help you
in that regard. For example, I've used the same nym for -years-, for
thousands of posts, and there are posts archived out there that I sure
wish I hadn't made; they're findable...I've never posted under any
other name. Exhume away. (And learn a thing or two in the process,
hopefully.)

No, Im not going to do that. Thats why they call it grace.

That's why -some- call it grace. There are other names for it.

But I can face up to them, and admit them for what they are. I
challenged your theistic friend Mr. Slaughter

Again, lumping us all in one basket I see. When will you realise how
really bigoted that is? You dont hesitate to call everyong that is a
Christian a bigot. Why not do some self examination, and find out that
you, too, sir, run the same road .

What part of "I challenged your theistic friend" lumps you into one
basket? No matter...until I see otherwise, the two of you -are- in the
same basket. Otherwise, why was he summoned?

Ding dong, there goes that bigot bell again. Ring it louder.

So you can hear it even though your head's stuffed squarely up your ***?
<eg> And again, true to form you ignore the point.

to do the same...he's failing me miserably. Why should I trust his
judgment in matters of such import as my immortal soul, when I clearly
can't trust him to be a man and step up to the plate here?

Step up to the plate because someone THINKS he should have to answer to
them? Who are YOU sir? Who do you THINK YOU really ARE?

I'm the guy that caught your little pal lying,

ring ring ring

I know how painful the truth can be, Brian. It appears that I nailed another
liar for Jesus; Score one for my side. You might want to remind your
recalcitrant friend that catching my fellow Christians in lie after half
truth after lie is what started to drive me from theism. If Slaughter's
deception has an adverse effect on someone else and does more harm than
good, well...he'll after to answer to the Big Guy, won't he?

that's who. I'm the guy that's judging the tree by its fruits, to put it
in terms you can more easily relate to. I'm allowed to do that, you
know...Jesus told me to. Are you questioning his authoritah? (That
probably went over everyone's head. No matter...I got a kick out of it.)

See, its that kind of statment that shows your hypocracy. You have no
claim on anything Jesus "told you" to do after denouncing Him in previous
parts of this "post". For you to lean on Him in that manner just shows
that you dont have a leg of your own to stand on, evne when you do so in
pseudomockery.

Congratulations. That's the most pathetic response you've made so far.
You've outdone yourself, and exposed yourself as something of a simpleton at
the same time for not recognizing the device I used to present my argument.

<snip>

They're free to believe that. It's when it's coupled with the other
quotes that it becomes a concern. You end up with a huge voting block of
people willing to crap on the Constitution because they think God has a
new emmisary on earth, with a red telephone linked to heaven. Why would
you guys want a pope of your onw, knowing how you feel about the regular
variety of Papists?

ring ring ring

Answer the red telephone, Brian...it might be Jesus.

As far as my silence, you presume I spend every day reading in this
rather useless place to spend time. I come in here very seldom, and I
dont hang on every word of every post, which is probably unlike many in
here. Its simply not worth the headache and nausea it causes.

The silence that I'm referring to is all of the stuff that you haven't
said, or didn't say. How did Slaughter find his way here? How did
savedgirl find her way here? Why do your names pop up in connection on
the web the way they do? I keep asking, you keep ignoring. That's the
silence. And it's loud.

ring ring ring OH wait, Ill venture a guess as to why our names keep
coming up together. Maybe someone out there, maybe even you! has started
some kind of hate list. Could that be true? Otherwise, I have no other
clue as to why we would be grouped together for anything other than
appearing in this ng.

So you're saying that you don't know these other people? See, we could have
avoided so much if you'd just come out and said it initially. That -is- what
you're saying, right?


The President is our Commander in Chief and has the power to make any
decision he desires in order to protect us.

I think there is a law somewhere that enables him do do so....?

I was correct...you -don't- read. No wonder we're in the mess we find
ourselves in. There are laws that specifically prohibit him from doing
so, and they weren't written by "activist judges", either. I have to look
up a quote here...ah, yes. Here it is: "The best argument against
democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." Winston
Churchill sometimes makes me laugh.

Well, the commander in chief has the direct authority to move troops as he
wishes, and he has the authority or executive order.

That is a far, far cry from what was claimed. He does NOT have the power to
make any decision he desires to protect us. That statement and your
"defense" of it are beyond ignorant. If you -really- want to be the subject
of a monarchy, either wait for heaven or move somewhere else. In the
meantime, research liberty and the phrase checks and balances.

Oh, sorry...that would involve reading.

As far as your claim that I dont read, Ive probably read more books than
you have in your house.

You know, if you think about it that's really not an impressive claim. What
if I only have thirty books or so?

So dont come off with your holier than thou attitude

Was that pun intended? <g>

that you are educated.

I never claimed that I was educated. My claim is that -your- education is
woefully lacking in some pretty important regards. And for what it's worth,
you'd be impressed with my library. I have everything from the Complete
Works of Tacitus (Josephus, that is) to a couple of "Nancy Clue and the
Hardly Boys", which are lesbian parodies of the originals. (Heck, I've
probably got more Hardy Boys books than most houses have books, period.) I
even have half a dozen different versions of the Bible. (I find Drake's to
be the most interesting.) Books are my passion; I usually read between two
and four at a time. Right now I'm reading Ron Paul's _The Revolution_ (which
I can't possibly recommend highly enough) and _Marx for Beginners_. Am I a
Marxist? Not even. But I'm reading about it...get the point? It's not just
reading...it's what you read. And you don't read enough.

You spend time with me sir. Im sure someone educated wouldnt bother
now....would they...

I've spent more time with you than I care to admit. And you're right; I must
be pretty damned stupid. Unless my motivation is just over your head. :)

If I was going to assault something in there, it would be that they don't
understand that the Bible is literal, they believe it to be. And which
part of the Bible will you derive your valid law from?

The Bible is a comprehensive document. Unless you examine it as such, you
can make a lot of exegetical and hermanutical mistakes, which is what you
seem to be good at. You like to pick and choose the bad parts that you
dont like, and then lift up the parts that make you seem good in your own
eyes. Until you learn to talk about the Bible with some scholarly
authority, I believe Id be wasting my time trying to answer your obviously
loaded question.

Oh, so since I only have a layman's authority rather than a scholarly one,
you won't answer. I didn't realize the Biblical injunction to be prepared to
defend the faith ahd those qualifiers attached to it. And if I didn't have
some understanding, just how could I propose a loaed question in the first
place? No matter...I'll accept your cop-out. What's -really- funny is that
the question isn't as loaded as you seem to think. Lay people might see it
so, but most Christians know why the laws of Leviticus don't apply to them.

<end quote>

What's frightening is that you guys wrap yourselves in the flag as
"True Patriots" while you dream of trampling people with the Bible in
your hand. What's more frightening is that your other hand is typically
holding a noose.

Again, I hear a ring if bigitory here.

Get your ears checked; that's the sound of patriotism. You're a threat to
people who don't believe as you do. Should homosexuals be stoned?

I see youre very Old Testament versed. Try reading the New Testament as
well. Jesus said:

See, that's your problem. Jesus was quite clear that he was part of the
Trinity from the beginning...so everything from God in the Old Testament
also came from Jesus. That's the essence of being triune. You don't get to
blow the OT off that easily. Thanks for the back-handed compliment. I can
assure you, I'm familar with both...I'm also familiar with the arguments
you'll make in response to what I've just said. And I have a reply ready. :)


John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said
unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at
her.

Conveniently ignoring the fact that he (as part of the godhead) demanded
stonings in the first place. For petty stuff, too. Can you see us demanding
the death penalty for prostituion? (While allowing people to beat their
slaves to death, no less...with a few provisos.)

Should we change the law to allow it? Surely God wouldn't object, and then
it's be legal on all fronts. How about stoning atheists? It's legal in
some parts...does God approve?

See above...

So if it's all so very clear, why is there so much blood on the hands of the
church? Was Jesus not clear enough? Or were those killers just not true
Christians? I've often read that the church favored burning at the stake so
that it could say that it -didn't- have blood on its hands...literally. Just
FYI.

You really should try walking into a good Bible believing church and
spend some time with some real Christians. Walk a mile in their shoes.
Theyve walked many in yours already.

Been there. Done that. Tithed. Received. Voted appropriately. Even
paraded in front of the abortion clinic with the sign.

Did you ever stop to tell one of those women that were going in there that
Jesus, and you, loved them?

If you did, did you mean it?

Gee, Brian...do you think I was just standing out there in hopes of getting
my mug on TV?



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