Re: 1816 and 1822 Large Cents (better dates) at drastically reduced pricing!


"oly" <oly2059@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Nov 29, 8:10 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
"oly" <oly2...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On Nov 29, 7:43 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
"Bruce Remick" <rem...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

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"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
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"Bruce Remick" <rem...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Ukraina Dvi" <sibirskmon...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Ira" <ir...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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i believe market grading definitely would come into play here. I
would
be quite amazed if a grade of MS-61/2 BN was not achieved. Yet
as
we
both know, the coin is what it is. At $575 for a real nice clean
original surfaced piece, I believe this to be an outstanding
value.

Ira

Yeah, I like it, even if Bruce sees a rub, and there probably is
one
on
the high point of the hair, but it is an attractive piece with
lovely
chocolate toning, and original mint bloom peaking through the
chocolate. I just wish this had come along before I blew all the
money
I did this month, rare Legal Tender and National Banknotes, then
a
Queen Mary Ryal from Scotland, an 1880 Half Dollar in PF-62 etc
etc.
Now if I can get that hoard of Nationals sold, then I have a heck
of
a
lot more spending dough. Oh gees, and Triton XII or whatever is
coming
in January, and there goes more dough.

I don't mean at all to suggest it's not a beauty. It would be
a
nice
upgrade to my 1816 by far. My point is that the MS grade seems to
be
assigned too liberally when it comes to especially attractive and
well
preserved early coppers. Rub on the high points is overlooked if
the
rest of the coin is exceptional.

PCGS and NGC can have all the proprietary grading standards and
motives they want. I may have difficulty telling an MS62 brown
cent
from an MS63, but I believe I can tell a technical UNC large cent
when I
see one -- 1806 or 1856 -- especially when the accepted grading
guides
specify no trace of wear. Rub on the high points of a design has
always
meant slight wear to me.

Penny Prices author Bill Noyes is unabashed in his assertion that
"Slab
Grade MS65 = EAC MS60 or AU55." And that's the top two grading
companies; the rest, sez he, show "even more disparity."

James

Still, to me, when you go from AU to MS, you enter a whole new
world.
It's either uncirculated or it isn't. Shouldn't need a TPG to
determine
that in most cases. I think Noyes is a little over the top in
trying
to
make his point. Granted, EAC members have relatively strict grading
standards, but a blanket statement like Noyes made makes me wonder.

I do wonder how many EAC'ers have been sufficiently brainwashed to
accept
AU55 money for their slabbed PCGS MS65 large copper. And I do
respect
their grade interpretations, too.

My experience has been that EACers use commercial grading when selling
and
EAC grading when buying. Wait, doesn't everyone?

James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My question is why, if these things are so great, why does the Great
OZ have to bring his song and dance routine to this forum?

Shouldn't these bargain wunder-disks sell themselves?

If these things would slab higher, and thus be even more desireable,
why doesn't OZ do it himself?

If they are so great, why is the seller taking a 30% haircut (or a 30%
plus haircut, considering OZ doesn't work for free)?

Why?? Why?? Why??

Pourquoi, pourquoi, pourquoi, you ask.

I for one am always happy to get the early heads up on these things, and
it
doesn't really matter to me who is selling them. In any event, if one is
a
copper specialist (such as moi), he knows that OZ speaks the truth. As
for
the seller's motivation, I fear the worst - divorce, sickness,
foreclosure,
death, orthodontia for the quintuplets - you know, all those minor
inconveniences that foul up our best-laid plans.

James- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If they're that good, why do they have to be shilled to the masses?
Chances are Ira offered them to you and to many other serious parties,
Mr. J., long before he started promoting them here.

In particular, I find dubious the representation that YOU, Mr.
COLLECTOR, can have them slabbed and they will slab up.

If that's true, why doesn't the dealer do it?

In this case, the most active buyers of choice large cents seem to prefer
"raw" examples. Plus, they apparently disagree with the inflated TPG grades
on early coppers to begin with.


[Poor analogy follows:] That's kind of like a realtor telling a
prospective client that a rental property is desireable because it has
a fantastic cash flow.

If the property has a great cash flow (and will pay for itself), the
realtor will buy it himself and the great unwashed public will never
see it.

That's like saying that the auctioneer of classic antique cars will buy
up for himself each vehicle he believes about to go for a bargain price. He
might wish he could afford to. I doubt many realtors are sitting with
pockets of ready cash waiting to pounce on attractive rental properties, as
much as they might want to be able to.


Again, it sounds like the merchandise needs to be sold, really flogged
hard, for some reason. Weak market developing?

Oly, you seem to be equating all advertising to hype for something that
should sell itself. If Ira has a coin to offer, how else would he spread
the word to a wide audience? Posting a link to an auction here would hardly
be considered "flogging". The only thing I find odd/envious about Ira's
business activities is that he seems to be able to purchase choice, high
grade supercoins at a low price from other dealers knowing he can then sell
them at a higher price. Flipping, I guess you prefer to call it.
Capitalism, I call it. I do have a hard time understanding why an active
dealer with a high-demand MS Bust Dollar or AU 1793 cent would wholesale it
when he should be able to sell it himself with little effort at top price.
There should be no fear of such a coin languishing in stock.

Ira apparently has invested his time and reputation in the coin
community to the point where he does well as a buy-sell dealer of high end
coins and has a reputation for finding and offering quality stuff. His ebay
auction minimums seem high to me, but his wares seldom go without bidders.
I often wish I could be in his shoes and wonder how he can detach himself to
watch these beauties pass through his hands, rather than keep them for
himself. I'm sure he wishes he could.

Bruce




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