Re: Montenegro Independent?!

In article <e5ih7k$29kv$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> "gogu" <golanule_VA_DA_MUIE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
Ï "Dik T. Winter" <Dik.Winter@xxxxxx> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
news:J02385.M8u@xxxxxxxxx
In article <e5fs2p$29uj$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> "gogu"
<golanule_VA_DA_MUIE@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

Just check the word "Republic" or the word "Mushrooms" and not
countries'
names!

Republic is given in my dictionary as Republika, and when you apply it to
Poland it is Rzeczpospolita. Rz and cz are single sounds, in other
languages
rendered as a single letter with a diacritic (a hacek in most cases). At
most two consonants together ("czp").

This is correct.
And such a writing is not met in any other slavic language/idiom!

You are still confusing how sounds are rendered with how they are actually
pronounced. Rendering it as a number of what are considered consonants
in the English language, does not make it so many consonants. The
orthography of languages is quite distinctive from the pronunciation.
Every language has its own idiosynchrasies with respect to ortography.
Consider that in english the sequence of letters "ough" can be pronounced
in about fifteen different ways, depending on the context. You should
not be lead astray by orthography.

According to my dictionary,
mushroom
(Pilz, my dictionary is German-Polish) is 'grzyb'.

Probably but probably never used in a restaurant!
Because that's where I learned it;-)
The word sounds like "pietsarski" (I am writing phonetic, I can't tell the
correct spelling...).

Ah, again much more confusion. The English word "mushroom" is used for
every edible toadstool. You were referring to the variant "champignon".
Polish: pieczarka. The combination "cz" is in other Slavic languages
rendered as a c with hacek. My knowledge of Polish grammar is not very
good, but I would think that the plural is "pieczarki", and I do not know
where you het the s from.

In any case every foreign student in Poland had a problem with all those
consonants (even more in writing Polish), problems you have in a far lesser
degree with any other slavic language.

If you do not know the orthography of a language you always will have a
problem with pronunciation. When somebody comes to a country and wishes
to pronounce the words properly, he/she should first obtain knowledge
about the orthography. Consider:
"Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch"
(from memory, it may be slightly wrong). See the combination "bwllll"?
That is not a combination of six consonants, but there are three consonants
and one vowel involved. In total those 58 letters describe 31 consonants
and 20 vowels. But you need to know the orthography to know that.

Neeee, don't try sophistries with me in Greek;-)
In Greek we have what it's called "diphthongs", where two letters in a
certain conjunction are pronounced as one single letter.

This is not the standard terminology in linguistics. Diphtongs are
applicable to vowels where the sound of one vowel glides to another.

That what I was referred to!

Pray explain that you used the term with respect to the combination mu-beta
in <news:e5fs2p$29uj$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>.

If I speak in Dutch the words "Reno" and "Pejo" they would be very
different
from the way you would pronounce them, and very dissimilar to the
originals.
The way you write Peugeot as "Pejo" already shows that you do not know the
distinction between "eu" and "e".

???
I wrote it phonetic to indicate the difference between writing a word and
its *pronunciation*!

And, yes, the pronunciation of "eu" and "e" is *very* different in both
Dutch and French. So much that mispronunciation can lead to
misunderstanding.

That is in itself not a problem, but in
Dutch (and in French) the two are very distinctive. And it show
immediately
that you are not a native speaker of those languages if you do not make a
distinction.

Of course they are nuances but the sound is almost the same!

To your ears. Not to mine. The combination "eu" is pronounced like a
German long "ö".

The problem with all this is that persons that do not
understand the distinction, in many cases also do not hear the
distinction.

Of course I can hear it, it's not *exactly* like that, but pray tell how
would you *write* how this word sounds!

I need IPA for that and the newsgroup is not suitable for IPA.

In every dictionary you'll find such "compromises" but it's the only way to
give in writting the most close sound to a given word!

Every dictionary tries to tell a user how it sounds using his own language.
And of course you have problems to convey a sound that is not in the native
language. How would you show to a Dutch speaker the pronunciation of the
English "th" (voiced and unvoiced)? That sound is not present in Dutch.
So there is the International Pronunciation Alphabet (IPA) that tries to
give proper pronunciation of evey word in every language. But you need to
know it before you can use it, so it is not suitable for a dictionary.

So many people pronounce the name of a well-known former Dutch football
plaer as "Kreuff" (German pronunciation implied), while is actual name:
"Cruiff" sounds very dissimilar, at least to Dutch ears. But it appears
that the sound of the Dutch "ui" does not occur in almost all other
languages.

And many others pronounce it "Kroiff"!

That is the German pronunciation of "Kreuff", which is not good.

The Prussian language was of Baltic origin. What we have now is a
language
from the Southern part of Germany which is very different from the
original
Prussian and quite different from the language spoken in Northern Germany.

And again I am asking you: then why even the infamous hitler talked about
them as Germans and considered their land as German land?!

I humbly suggest: politics.

Of course I am not saying that whatever that devil did is correct, I am just
asking myself why even today the Germans (or at least some among them...)
are regarding, say Stetin or Pozen as a German city/land?!
Same the Polish land west of the Oder-Neisse line was regarded by the
Germans as German land.
And why there are so many Germanophones in that part of Poland sustaining
they are of ... German origin?...
You can say that the wars and the movement of population played a role but
again...
And certainly the name "Gebhard von Blucher" sounds more German than
anything to me;-)
Please note that I am not sustaining that the Oder-Neisse line is rightful
or else, I am just stating what many Germans believe...

This is all purely politics and nationalitic feelings. Poland shifted a
bit to the west. This created resentment in the Polish part that was
formerly German and in the Russian part that was formerly Polish. If
you want to maintain former borders, Europe would change quite a bit.

Yes, and so? I could give you quite a few quotes were it is stated that
the Dutch are actually Germans, speaking some strange dialect. And some
of those even date from before Germany as a state did exist.

Well, I suppose you are not accusing National Geographic of ... faking
history, don't you?!

No.

And I suppose that the work of Dr. E.A.Grosvenor who wrote a (quite)
monumental work named "People of Europe" and studied for more than 50 years
the populations of Europe is also a ... fake in your book!!
Because that was the person I was talking about!

Perhaps. What he wrote was perhaps valid 100 years ago (using the knowledge
that was available at that time). But I wonder why you remain wishing to
apply it to current times. Borders change in history.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Bedrading elektrische stoel naast de bestuurder
    ... up Dutch and Deutsch?? ... The English probably stuck to that old term. ... The German and Dutch languages are clearly from the same roots. ... I used to know a Dutch/German couple who just spoke to each other in their own language. ...
    (alt.auto.mercedes)
  • Re: Some people cant understand their neighbours
    ... on the Dutch language. ... a separate language, not intelligible to Aachen (60% intelligibility), ... (Eschweiler German) ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: The Results was Re: Improveing my seo
    ... Imagine the changes in the Dutch language then - all English language ... it can be an easy grade.:-) Anyway, my daughter went to a German preschool ...
    (alt.internet.search-engines)
  • Some people cant understand their neighbours
    ... on the Dutch language. ... a separate language, not intelligible to Aachen (60% intelligibility), ... (Eschweiler German) ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Clarksons latest article.
    ... been written in German, if it had been actually allowed to be written at ... joining an army) their their language of preference might well be ... retained our Superpower status and our Empire (since we'd be an ally ... If you mean the British Empire dissolved a few years after the war ...
    (uk.media.tv.misc)