Re: If this happens gas prices should rise considerably


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The Arab countries in the middle east are more
interested in
being
Muslim theocracies than western democracies, and nobody
in
North
America can be surprised that people are willing to die
to
assert
their
right to self determination.

Nonsense, Chuck. Inside all people, everywhere, there's
an
American
trying
to be born. They just don't know it yet.

Didn't we learn this in Vietnam? Or...wait a minute....
<scratching
head>


But the world also has to stand up to people who decide
that
their
Theocracy
is the only way and then proceed to eliminate any not of
the
"faith".
Happened in Germany, Ruwanda, etc. And the faith can be
something
besides
religion.

And the U.S. Remember the Puritans?


I wonder, too, about the Jehovah's Mattresses or whatever they
call
themselves.

Exactly!
Also, remember, that the new American Christians thought the
indians
evil and wanted them burned at the stake, etc.


Nope, they were just an inconvenience or like in California,
cheap
labor.

Oh, *** Bill, you couldn't be more wrong! The Plymouth settlers
didn't
even consider the American Indian to be human. They thought they
were
an evil hellish monsters. There are accounts of masacres in the
name of
God to rid the area of these direct descendants of the Devil.


Odd that the Plimouth Plantation people survived because of the
Indians
and
created the first Thanksgiving.

I guess you need to study a little history, start here:
http://www.voanews.com/specialenglish/archive/2003-04/a-2003-04-02-6-1.cfm
It's a narrative, but none the less states in part:
Many settlers came to believe that Native Americans could not be
trusted because they were not Christians. The settler groups began to
fear the Indians. They thought of the Indians as a people who were
evil
because they had no religion. The settlers told the Indians they must
change and become Christians. The Indians did not understand why they
should change anything.

Then check this out:
http://are.as.wvu.edu/ruvolo.htm
which says in part:
The history of American religions is dominated by the presence of
Christianity brought to the New World by European settlers.
Columbus's
discovery in 1492 marked the beginning of a massive "white" invasion
that would consume the entire continent of North America over the
next
four centuries. Although Christianity manifested itself in countless
denominations, it was, nevertheless, the umbrella under which most
Europeans in America gathered. It served as common ground on which
white settlers could stand together in the struggle for survival in
the
wilderness of the New World. Whatever differences there were between
denominations were insignificant when compared to the differences
between the white European Christianity and their counterparts on the
continent, the resident Native Americans. This fact, along with the
desire and need for land, turned Native Americans into a convenient
enemy for most groups of European settlers.

In essence, time had run out for the indigenous race that populated
the
continent of North America. Like the Israelites of the sixth century
B.C.E., Native Americans were faced with an enemy that was more
advanced. Ironically, the invading whites are the religious
descendants
of those same Israelites who were conquered by the Babylonians in 586
B.C.E.. Armed with technologically advanced weapons, diseases which
were foreign to the continent, and a concept known as Manifest
Destiny,
European settlers began an assault on the North American Continent
the
result of which was nothing short of genocide. Within four hundred
years of their first contact, the white man had succeeded in
stripping
Native American civilizations of virtually all of their land and had
nearly wiped their cultures from the face of the earth.

Need more?


Where does it say Plymouth / Plimouth Plantation figured they were
evil?

You mean like this:

When the Pilgrims came to New England they too were coming not to
vacant land but to territory inhabited by tribes of Indians. The story
goes that the Pilgrims, who were Christians of the Puritan sect, were
fleeing religious persecution in Europe. They had fled England and went
to Holland, and from there sailed aboard the Mayflower, where they
landed near what is now Plymouth, Massachusetts.

Religious persecution or not, they immediately turned to their religion
to rationalize their persecution of others. They appealed to the Bible,
Psalms 2:8: "Ask of me, and I shall give thee, the heathen for thine
inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy
possession." To justify their use of force to take the land, they
cited Romans 13:2: "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power,
resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to
themselves damnation."

The Puritans lived in uneasy truce with the Pequot Indians, who
occupied what is now southern Connecticut and Rhode Island. But they
wanted them out of the way; they wanted their land. And they wanted to
establish their rule firmly over Connecticut settlers in that area.

The way the different Indian peoples lived - communally,
consensually, making decisions through tribal councils - contrasted
dramatically with the Puritans' Christian fundamentalist values. For
the Puritans, men decided everything, whereas in the Iroquois
federation of what is now New York state women chose the men who
represented the clans at village and tribal councils; it was the women
who were responsible for deciding on whether or not to go to war. The
Christian idea of male dominance and female subordination was
conspicuously absent in Iroquois society.

There were many other cultural differences: The Iroquois did not use
harsh punishment on children. They did not insist on early weaning or
early toilet training, but gradually allowed children to learn to care
for themselves. On the other hand, the pastor of the Pilgrim colony,
John Robinson, advised his parishioners: "And surely there is in all
children a stubbornness, and stoutness of mind arising from natural
pride, which must, in the first place, be broken and beaten down."
The Pilgrims embraced those strict, brutal practices.

Each tribe held to different sexual/marriage relationships; they
practiced many different sexualities, and celebrated them. These ideas
repelled the Puritan hierarchy and attracted some of the European
"commoners". Native people did not believe in ownership of land -
that concept was totally alien; they utilized the land, lived on it.
The idea of "ownership" was ridiculous, absurd. The European
Christians, on the other hand, in the spirit of the emerging
capitalism, wanted to own and control everything - land, children,
sexuality, and other human beings.

In 1636 an armed expedition left Boston to attack the Narragansett
Indians on Block Island. The English landed and killed some Indians,
but the rest hid in the thick forests of the island and the English
went from one deserted village to the next, destroying crops. Then they
sailed back to the mainland and raided Pequot villages along the coast,
destroying crops again.

The English went on setting fire to wigwams in the village. They burned
village after village to the ground. As one of the leading theologians
of his day, Dr. Cotton Mather put it: "No less than 600 Pequot souls
were brought down to hell that day." And Cotton Mather, clutching his
bible, spurred the English to slaughter more Indians in the name of
Christianity.

One colonist rationalized the plague that had destroyed the Patuxet
people - a combination of slavery, murder by the colonists and
disease brought by the English - as "the Wonderful Preparation of
the Lord Jesus Christ by His Providence for His People's Abode in the
Western World."

The Pilgrims robbed Wampanoag graves for the food that had been buried
with the dead for religious reasons. Whenever the Pilgrims realized
they were being watched, they shot at the Wampanoags and scalped them.
Scalping had been unknown among Native Americans in New England prior
to its introduction by the English, who began the practice by offering
the heads of their enemies and later accepted scalps.

Three hundred thousand Indians were murdered in New England over the
next few years. It was the Puritan elite who wanted the war, a war for
land, for gold, for power. It is important to note that ordinary
Englishmen did not want this war. Often, very often, they refused to
fight.


The Pilgrims were two separate groups of people. The ship for one group
was unable to sail, so the two groups were combined together. There was
an uneasy truce between the two groups in Plimoth also. They were scared
of the Indians, because they were stealing there lands, and some were
pissed.


And Cotton Mather carried the bible around to hide sandwiches in.


He did? Some were religious persecution, some were debtors, some were POM"s
as the Australians called them. Former Prisoners of Mother England. The
American Revolution is why England sent Prisoners to Oz. Do not paint all
immigrants with the same brush.


.