Re: OT: electric motor brush WTF

On Aug 26, 9:41 am, Dan O <danover...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 26, 8:38 am, Frank Krygowski <frkrygowREM...@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:



Peter Cole wrote:
On 8/26/2011 12:06 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Aug 25, 11:18 pm, AMuzi<a...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Peter Cole wrote:The only stuff I buy in hardware
stores these days is either bulky (paint, lumber -- costly to ship) or
consumables that I need right away and am sure they'll have. We've been
ordering grocery supplies online for over 10 years now. We order
eyeglasses straight from China, and I don't think I've bought a single
item of clothing in a real store in 15 years. Bike parts, maybe 3-4
times in the last decade. Books, zero times. Computer stuff, zero
times.
I buy a lot of stuff, but I'm probably in a mall less than once a year.
I buy from a lot of hole in the wall shops, they're just internet
holes.

"Books, zero times."

Without addressing your larger argument I can't imagine a
life without my favorite used book stores. A joy to behold
and places where I often discover something I did not seek.

Agreed, and I feel that way even about hardware stores. I think a
shortcoming of Peter's approach is a sort of self-isolation - to know
about only the things a person already knows about.

Even in hardware stores, I like to just browse around every once in a
while, to keep current. As with browsing books in a brick& mortar
store (or a library), every once in a while, I learn about something
new, something I didn't know existed.

Also, I'd feel pretty uncertain about choosing a tool like, say, a
band saw online. I'd at least want to get my hands on it, see how the
controls feel, judge the fit and finish, etc.

- Frank Krygowski

I'm usually perfectly OK with reading the reviews of others, many of
whom may be better judges than I. Even for highly subjective things like
restaurants and movies, critics, or just peers, have saved me a lot of
wasted time and money. I feel the same about power tools (to use your
example). I don't feel comfortable these days buying anything without
perusing reviews first. I often find answers to questions I wouldn't
have known to ask.

I have bought cheap, mostly Chinese knockoff, tools from Harbor Freight.
It was always a crap shoot, some being absolute junk, others being
incredible bargains. There was no way of discerning until they added
online reviews. Professional reviews (e.g. Consumer Reports) can be very
helpful, trade magazine reviews, less so. Peer reviews are more useful
than either, in my experience, either at the web site, or even in news
group archives or blogs. Frequently, at least some sites I use, have
hundreds of reviews. At that point, you don't even have to read them,
just the aggregate statistics. When I shop in a store, I feel like I'm
buying blind, even when I'm holding the actual thing.

In terms of "self-isolation", I find the term ironic. What could be less
"isolated" than relying heavily on the recommendations of others? Of all
the hype about the Internet, the only thing I have found to be real has
been the trend towards "disintermediation" -- cutting out the middleman.
Savvy retailers now provide useful information. Many of the sites I
frequent provide tutorials, particularly in the form of videos. Others
provide extensive online documentation and spec sheets. Recently, I was
selecting cabinet hinges. Knowing nothing about the myriad types, I was
able to educate myself before making a selection. I went through the
same exercise in drawer slides, drawer pulls, and ceiling light
fixtures, to give just a few examples. I made new couch cushions with
the help of online videos showing how to install zippers and make
piping. I was able to buy attachments I didn't even know existed for my
60 year old sewing machine. This spring, I bought 2 solar panels for my
sailboat. I also bought (2-part) catalyzed, water-based urethane paint
(@$60/qt). It would have done me no good to have held the items in my
hands before buying.

I used to have conversations about this stuff with Sheldon Brown. He was
an enthusiastic supporter of using the Internet to sell bike stuff. His
shop went from 0% to 75% of sales (with a large expansion)
online/mail-order. Sheldon's "secret" was to use the Internet as a
vehicle to provide information. Since he was local to me, I used to
frequent his shop. After he went online, I had little need to, I could
peruse his articles more easily than consulting him directly. That was
hardly "self-isolation", for either of us.

I remember one exchange I had with Sheldon. He was enthusing about his
latest gadget -- a PDA. I told him I had tried one and found little use
for it. His response was that it was great for storing a list for
grocery shopping. My retort was: you still go to grocery stores? He
roared at that and admitted I had one-upped him. That was probably 10
years ago.

Sheldon remarked about how he sold Brooks saddles to buyers in England.
I just bought some locally (MA) produced paint and battery boxes based
on the recommendations of a professional painter in Pennsylvania and
boatyard owner in California, respectively. I bought a 1200W motor
controller from a small shop in China, when it blew up, I repaired it
and discovered a design flaw. I communicated this back (in broken
English) to the manufacturer. I got his thanks and a new board.

The world is full of Sheldon's, and the Internet has given them a
presence. Just recently, I've found how to remove a lawnmower flywheel
without cracking it, pull motor armature bearings without a specialty
puller, install flush-mounted threaded fasteners in boat decks, and how
to tie non-slipping knots in bungee cord. In addition to techniques,
I've located the parts and materials, often parts and materials I didn't
know existed. I've built 4 rowing boats in the last 5 years from free
plans given from a guy in Finland. I've passed along my feedback to him
and my experience/advice to others. "Self-isolation"? I don't think so.
Quite the contrary, actually. You guys wandering the aisles are the ones
in self-imposed isolation. Join the club.

I doubt anyone here is disputing the value of the Internet. Certainly,
one can learn a lot via Google or YouTube. And yes, online reviews can
sometimes be helpful.

OTOH, I've seen plenty of reviews saying "This think is a peice of
krap!!!!" next to "Purchasing this lovely device has given my life new
meaning and purpose! I love it and always will!!!!"

What is the difference between this and the "Danger! Danger!" know-
nothings. Think for yourself and you'll be fine.

... with the latter
probably posted by the manufacturer.

And physically going into the heart of the manufacturer's and
marketer's and retailer's bastion... ?

Plus I've gotten excellent advice
and technical help from grey-haired guys with 30 years experience
working in hardware stores. Or last week, the 35-year-old guy working
the electrical department at Lowes.

True. Kind of depends a little bit on where you live, though. And
again, I'll bet the cost / benefit of this "social time" with whoever
you encounter in the store is almost certainly a net loss (cluld be
wrong; that's just me; kind of depends on the individual, I guess).

In any case, grocery shopping over the internet? Seriously? To my
mind, that sounds sterile and haphazard compared to putting the grocery
panniers on the bike, riding a mile or two to the store, smelling the
green peppers, thumping the cantaloupe, looking at the cuts of meat or
fish for inspiration... and I'm far from being a foodie. And then there
are the farmers' markets and roadside stands! (Ask Jay about the one in
the Parks Blocks in the center of Portland.)

Again, all of the above from riding to the store to the expererience
in the grocery store to the farmer's markets depends on where you
live. I love having the little store a few blocks away (even if they
do charge a *lot* and you have to be careful to check expiration
dates, etc.), but would also love having the things that I like and
need appear right there at home without the extra handling.

And that doesn't count the social contact. During my visit to a grocery
store last night, I joked with two cashiers about not "carding" me
because of my grey beard. The previous trip home from the grocery, my
wife and I stopped our bikes at the home of the English guy down the
street, whom we haven't seen for nine months (he's been working in
Chicago). We had a very pleasant 20 minute conversation (despite the
ice cream in our panniers), ending with an invitation to get together
for beers.

No one's eschewing that sort of thing entirely, but there's a range of
inclination for that sort of thing, and how you spend the time of you
life...

I suppose balance is what's called for, as usual.

Here we are in absolute agreement.

But I wouldn't want
to do all - or even most - of my shopping online, any more than I'd want
all - or even most - of my "friends" to be people on Facebook.

It's good that people aren't all the same - else you "social time"
would get boring fast.

Obviously I simply do love a good argument, and obviously I kind of
have it in for Frank; but Frank, can you see how your "self-isolating"
remark and supporting argument and implications was plainly demeaning
and directed at a thoughtful, eloquent, articulate individual who you
has recently questioned the infallibility of your wisdom?
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT: electric motor brush WTF
    ... ordering grocery supplies online for over 10 years now. ... item of clothing in a real store in 15 years. ... perusing reviews first. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: OT: electric motor brush WTF
    ... ordering grocery supplies online for over 10 years now. ... item of clothing in a real store in 15 years. ... perusing reviews first. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: OT: electric motor brush WTF
    ... ordering grocery supplies online for over 10 years now. ... item of clothing in a real store in 15 years. ... perusing reviews first. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: OT: electric motor brush WTF
    ... ordering grocery supplies online for over 10 years now. ... and I feel that way even about hardware stores. ... perusing reviews first. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: OT: electric motor brush WTF
    ... ordering grocery supplies online for over 10 years now. ... item of clothing in a real store in 15 years. ... perusing reviews first. ... I have bought cheap, mostly Chinese knockoff, tools from Harbor Freight. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)