Re: (OT) What Global Warming has in common with Marxism

In article <6dbff69a-0cdc-4187-aa0d-a6885c425bb4
@v37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, fiultra1@xxxxxxxxx says...
On Jul 29, 2:47 am, mike <m....@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <5bb22272-81fe-4cc6-af66-228b8adfa4d7
@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, fiult...@xxxxxxxxx says...


Goodie. Here we have Mike, who claims to be a scientist. So, Mike,
scientist who believes in Global Warming, please explain to us:

Actually, I don't think I claimed to be a scientist - although it
shouldn't be too hard for a man of your resourcefulness to find out if I
am.

1. Why is it bad for the earth to get a little warmer when it is
nowhere near as warm as it was for 400 years during the Medieval Warm
Period (a worldwide historical, proven, peer reviewed, ineradicable
fact of History in every science except climatology)?

2. Why is it bad for the earth to recover from the extended freeze of
the Little Ice Age (a worldwide historical, proven, peer reviewed,
ineradicable fact of History in every science except climatology) when
it isn't even as warm as it was before the LIA?

3. Why do you claim manmade CO2 is responsible for "global warming"
when during the MWP, when there was no manmade CO2, it was so much
warmer for 400 years?

4. Why do you claim manmade CO2 is responsible for "global warming"
when the ice core record shows that temperature rise leads increased
CO2 emissions by substantial periods?

Your questions appear to rely on a number of unproven hypotheses:
1) that the earth was globally warmer than now during the period (~800-
1300).
2) that the earth was globally colder during the period (~1600-1900).
3) that any sensible authority claims that all global temperature
variation is due to man-made CO2.
4) that ice-core records disprove the hypothesis that CO2 is a green-
house gas.

Regarding your points 1) and 2). I will limit my refutation to your
assumptions regarding the MWP and LIA to the set of references shown at
the bottom of the post. With regards to your question as to why is it
bad for the earth to get a little warmer, you appear to want butter on
both sides of the bread. Is your argument on GW a) it doesnt exist b) we
aren't causing it, or c) if it is happening then that's OK 'cos then the
weather will be nicer. If a) or b) then see my comments and references
below, if c) you might want to consider the natural, economic, and
social effects of climate change including, sea-level rise, species
extinction, significant change (obviously not alway beneficial) in the
length of growing season etc.

For 3), it is obvious to any meteorologist or paleoclimatologist (or to
anyone who has a clue) that there are a number of influences on global
and local climate (both short and long-term). To name just a few: cyclic
ocean temperatures (eg. el Nino and la Nina, the North Atlantic
Oscillation); volcanism (e.g Pinatubo, Tambora, Taupo); Milancovitch
cycles and (probably) sun-spot cycles, positive feed-back features (e.g.
albedo, thermohaline circulation); plate tectonics (although obviously
only very long term) and green-house gases (eg. methane, CO2).

So it is silly to identify a single climate event and then claim (as you
appear to) that "as that was not due to CO2, then no other climate
change event could be due to CO2". What we do know however, is that:
a) atmospheric CO2 concentration is rising at ~0.5% per year.
b) atmospheric CO2 concentration is higher now than any time in the past
500,000 years.
c) the physics and chemistry of CO2 determines that it will act as a
green-house gas - i.e. it will decrease the flux of UV re-radiated out
of the atmosphere (in effect it reduces the earth's albedo over a
significant spectral range).
d) stete-of-the-art climate and atmosphere models invariably confirm
that existing levels of CO2 are sufficient to cause an appreciable rise
in global temperature.
e) beyond a certain point there will be a positive feed-back in Temp-CO2
relationship as environmentally stored CO2 will be released as
temperatures rise.

I won't provide specific references for these claims, but you can find
many hundreds of then pretty easily - for example at:

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/bib.htm#2224

For 4), once again you pull out a red-herring. Firstly, only some ice
records (and some climate events) show a lag in CO2 v. temperature,
others show near simultaneity, or even a short lead in CO2. It is
technically very difficult to produce reliable data for both temperature
and CO2. Secondly, of course most historic climate change events are not
due to increasing CO2 - after all there was no technical civilisation
around to burn stuff during the major ice ages. what there is evidence
of though, is that CO2 (like many other temperature-influenced
properties) can act as an amplifier to climate change due to other
events. Thirdly, if you limit ice analysis to the last thousand years,
then you do see a significant correlation between CO2 lewvels and
temperature, and _this_ time the CO2 is leading the temperature change.

And that is what you consider a scientific argument to my many factual
points? I notice you conceded, by going over to personal attack, that
all your counter-points were false because I had good answers to them.

You didn't provide any factual points in the post to which I originally
replied (and still haven't) and my reply was only personal to the extent
that it pointed out the irrelevance of your argument to the global-
warming debate. What you did do was post a little undergraduate-level
essay that claimed global-warming was a fraud because, in your opinion
(un-referenced and unsupported by any actual evidence), Marx was a bad
writer who may (or may not) . At the very best it was an opinion-piece.

For your homework, you might want to find just 3 or 4 peer-reviewed
papers by climatologists (not retired Rear Admirals, economists, or
politicians) that refute the existance or effects of climate change.

--Mike

1,2) Evidence suggesting MWP was a local event and/or not as warm as now
and/or that the LIA was a local event.

Thompson, L.G., Mosley-Thompson, E., Davis, M.E., Lin, P.-N., Henderson,
K. and Mashiotta, T.A. 2003. Tropical glacier and ice core evidence of
climate change on annual to millennial time scales. Climatic Change 59:
137-155.

Briffa, K.R., P.D. Jones, F.H. Schweingruber and T.J. Osborn,
"Influence of volcanic eruptions on northern hemisphere summer
temperature over the past 600 years." Nature, Volume 393, pp. 450-455.
1998.

Huang, S.. "Merging Information from Different Resources for New
Insights into Climate Change in the Past and Future." Geophys. Res,
Lett. 31, L13205, doi:10.1029/2004GL019781, 2004.

Mann, M.E., R.S. Bradley and M.K. Hughes, "Northern hemisphere
temperatures during the past millennium: inferences, uncertainties and
limitations." Geophysical Research Letters, vol. 26, pp. 759-762. 1999.

Hemer, M.A. and Harris, P.T. 2003. Sediment core from beneath the Amery
Ice Shelf, East Antarctica, suggests mid-Holocene ice-shelf retreat.
Geology 31: 127-130.

Hall, B.L., Hoelzel, A.R., Baroni, C., Denton, G.H., Le Boeuf, B.J.,
Overturf, B. and Topf, A.L. 2006. Holocene elephant seal distribution
implies warmer-than-present climate in the Ross Sea. Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences USA 103: 10,213-10,217.

Lorrey, A., Williams, P., Salinger, J., Martin, T., Palmer, J., Fowler,
A., Zhao, J.-X. and Neil, H. 2008. Speleothem stable isotope records
interpreted within a multi-proxy framework and implications for New
Zealand palaeoclimate reconstruction. Quaternary International 187: 52-
75.

3) Evidence showing short and long term trends in CO2 concentration, and
that CO2 is a green-house gas and that climate models predict warming.

Sun, S., and R. Bleck, 2001: Atlantic thermohaline circulation and
its response to increasing CO2 in a coupled atmosphere?ocean
model. Geophys. Res. Lett., 28, 4223?4226.

Etheridge, D.M., Steele, L.P., Langenfelds, R.L., Francey, R.J.,
Barnola, J.-M. and Morgan, V.I. (1998). Historical CO2 records from the
Law Dome DE08, DE08-2, and DSS ice cores. In Trends: A Compendium of
Data on Global Change. Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, Oak
Ridge National Laboratory, U.S. Department of Energy, Oak Ridge

Kirk W. Thoning, Pieter P. Tans, Walter D. Komhyr, Atmospheric carbon
dioxide at Mauna Loa Observatory: 2. Analysis of the NOAA GMCC data
1974-1985, Journal of Geophysical Research, vol.94, 8549-8565 (20 June
1989).

C. Zhao, P. Tans, and K. Thoning, A high precision manometric system for
absolute calibration of CO2 in dry air, Journal of Geophysical Research,
102, 5885-5894, 1997.

Severinghaus, Jeffrey P. (2009). "Southern See-Saw Seen." Nature 457:
1093-94.

McManus, Jerry F., et al. (1999). "A 0.5-Million-Year Record of
Millennial-Scale Climate Variability in the North Atlantic." Science
283: 971-75

Boyle, E.A. (1988). "Vertical Oceanic Nutrient Fractionation and
Glacial/Interglacial CO2 Cycles." Nature 331: 55-56.

Shackleton, Nicholas J., and N.G. Pisias (1985). "Atmospheric Carbon
Dioxide, Orbital Forcing and Climate." In The Carbon Cycle and
Atmospheric CO2: Natural Variations Archean to Present (Geophysical
Monograph 32), edited by E. T. Sundquist and Wallace S. Broecker, pp.
303-17. Washington, DC: American Geophysical Union.

National Research Council, CO2/Climate Review Panel (1982). "Carbon
Dioxide and Climate: A Second Assessment." Washington, DC, National
Academy of Sciences

Shapley, Harlow, Ed. (1953). Climatic Change. Evidence, Causes, and
Effects. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Shaw, Glenn E. (1976). "Properties of the Background Global Aerosol and
Their Effects on Climate." Science 192: 1334-36.

Bader D.C., C. Covey, W.J. Gutowski Jr., I.M. Held, K.E. Kunkel, R.L.
Miller, R.T. Tokmakian and M.H. Zhang (Authors) Climate Models: An
Assessment of Strengths and Limitations A Report by the U.S. Climate
Change Science Program and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research [.
Department of Energy, Office of Biological and Environmental Research,
Washington, D.C., USA,

....and many thousands more.







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