Re: OT: Our Principles Revived

On May 21, 1:11 pm, Keiron <po...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 14:17:18 -0400, RonSonic wrote:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 17:31:09 GMT, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<usenetrem...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Thu, 21 May 2009 13:12:42 -0400, RonSonic <ronso...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

On Thu, 21 May 2009 16:33:29 GMT, Johnny Twelve-Point presented by JFT
<usenetrem...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Thu, 21 May 2009 12:07:17 -0400, Still Just Me
<stillnoEm...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Finally, after eight years of ignorance, a President who knows what
we were founded upon and what we stand for:

"But I believe with every fiber of my being that in the long run we
also cannot keep this country safe unless we enlist the power of our
most fundamental values. The documents that we hold in this very hall
-- the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of
Rights -- these are not simply words written into aging parchment.
They are the foundation of liberty and justice in this country, and a
light that shines for all who seek freedom, fairness, equality, and
dignity around the world," "

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/05/
obama_takes_on.html

Contrast with

"And when they see the American government caught up in arguments
about interrogations, or whether foreign terrorists have
constitutional rights, they don't stand back in awe of our legal
system and wonder whether they had misjudged us all along. Instead the
terrorists see just what they were hoping for - our unity gone, our
resolve shaken, our leaders distracted. In short, they see weakness
and opportunity."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/21/raw-data-text-dick-cheneys-

national-security-speech-aei/





Clearly, Obama's speech you quote is emboldening the terrorists.

No. Actually both are not only correct, but right to say what they
have.

Obama is smart to say nice, reassuring things quietly content in the
knowledge that he reserves the right to pour water up the nose of
terrorist leaders to obtain operational knowledge.

Cheney speaks wisely that we would do well to appear well-agreed and
resolute in dealing with our enemies.

That might be true in a general sense, but Cheney cannot truly believe
that it's important at all, because if he truly believed that lack of
agreement was a problem, he would be at least as reticent about speaking
publicly as when he was in power.

So he is, at best, being disengenuous.

There are far too many people who in apparent ignorance of the laws of
war (or this land, for that matter) are determined that enemy
combatants, illegal combatants at that, be treated according to some
legal standard that has never existed. Cheney has been near the center
of determining and administering policy and law for some years now. He
knows whereof he speaks in discouraging "lawfare." The Bush
administration had a very narrow path to walk and remained effective and
as open as reasonable security permits.

You will notice Cheney is not speaking against Obama's actions against
the jihadis only against the threats to criminalize political
disagreements with the previous administration.

I've got no problem with this good cop / bad cop routine. As you say it
is a feature. This isn't a bad way to use it.

PS - disagreement is inherent in democracy.  Always has been, always
will be.  It's a feature, not a bug.

I'm fine with disagreement. I do think that public officials have a
responsibility to be careful in stating their disagreements on foreign
policy and military matters. Cheney's statements in that speech you
reference were very careful. Some of what we have seen in recent years
has been downright irresponsible, things like Harry Reid's Pvt Hudson
moment a few years ago when he declared that Iraq was lost. That was so
abjectly wrong, stupid and counterproductive I still can't imagin what
he was thinking. I have no doubt that it encouraged the enemy to
redouble their efforts. And, again, attempts to criminalize political
disagreement are simply wrong and contrary to our tradition of an
orderly succession of power.

The next phase will be very interesting. The jihadis have apparently
decided that Pakistan is the next battleground. This is going to require
some very careful diplomacy and very crafty warfare.

Sweet Jesus. You yanks really do love your wars don't you? Haven't you
realised that our western governments perpetuate the climate of fear
solely to consolidate their holds over us? Very little difference from an
other dictatorial regime. Bring on the anarchy (in the real sense)! Proud
to be an American? Proud to be British? Nah-ah.

Are you kidding?!? Dude we can't even figure out that tall buildings
don't crumble neatly into their basements by accident!!

dkl
.

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