Re: Speed record

Carl Fogel writes:

I got my information while talking to the Howard team at InterBike
years ago where the bicycle was displayed.

At last, you tell us this! I thought you must have some more information
you weren't letting on.

How do you explain the 15x power requires to roller race at these 150
mph+ speeds if the bicycle is not being pushed? You cited the roller
race record, now use it.

Roller racing appears to be gearing-limited by the rules as was
explained. Nuescheler achieved his 102mph record at a cadence of 261rpm
in a 54x11 gear. Had he been allowed a 108x11 gear I suspect he could
have "gone 204mph".

http://geocities.com/manfred43_99/

Unfortunately, this is fairly typical of Jobst.

He doesn't say what his "information" is--this leaves plenty of room
for more dodging, weaving, evasion, and red herrings get pretty thick.

I predict that you'll have a hell of a time getting him to state what
"information" he got "while talking to the Howard team at InterBike
years ago where the bicycle was displayed."

Specifically, who said what?

Did the guy who drove the pace car for John Howard team's say that no
one can spin 60 mph on rollers?

Hey, cut it out. I just walked up to the stand and looked at the
bicycle. I asked how, with such gearing the bicycle got up to speed
and they said it was towed. When I asked how the speed of the car was
maintained to not drop the rider, they said it was controlled by Howard
on the bicycle.

There was no more to it. The rest of what I have said is from
understanding of wind resistance and what we have all seen in bicycle
publications. There was no secret cabal.

Where is a single calculation that hasn't been refuted or a single
statement from a named speed record rider that supports Jobst's
claim?

The nonsense above about the "15x power" is a good example. Apart
from being nearly incoherent, it ignores most of what's been posted.

I think there is no doubt that wind drag in wheels increases as the
cube of velocity. Use your own calculator to compare the two speeds.
The claim was that the wind screen on the car reduced the rider to
still air and that he merely had to turn the wheels. That is
analogous to roller riding where the bicyclist is not traveling
against wind resistance.

If Jobst is trying to argue that spoked bicycle wheels can't be spun
against wind drag, he ought to attach a $10 WalMart speedometer to a
rear wheel, flip the bike upside down, and crank it up to 40 mph with
one hand in a couple of seconds--I did it repeatedly for long-ago
slime-tube roll-down tests.

I've ridden enough rollers to know that you don't hold 60 mph for more
than a few seconds if you can get that fast.

Or Jobst could just pay attention to what Ron Ruff wrote in this
thread:

"Spoke windage on a stationary bike is quite low (people with
powermeters have measured it)."

At what speed and how much was it?

But Jobst ignored Ron, just as he ignores most of what's written.

Even if Jobst's claim turns out to be true in some way much more
limited than he kept insisting at first, his method of explaining it
so far is unconvincing. A few examples illustrate what's going on:

"The gear ratio is equal to a 280t Chainwheel driving a 13t
sprocket. Like John Howard's bicycle, this one cannot be propelled
on flat ground by pedaling. Pedals and drive mechanism are a sham,
adding nothing to the propulsion of the bicycle."

"I'm looking for the day that someone does this, possibly with the
same bicycle, with no cranks. Cranks that add nothing to propelling
the bicycle. In this attempt the gearing was one that the rider
could rotate with the pedals at 268.831 km/h (aka 167.044mph) or
roughly 270km/h."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/9e3d2a3143f15d06

***

Concerning Sam Whittingham'ss 80+ Varna Diablo II ride, Jobst seems
to be concerned about how level the ground is at Battle Mountain:

"It all depends on what definition you use. You didn't mention what
sort of vehicle or whether this was to be on level ground and how
far."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/4f1b15275bfab6a0

***

Here's a typical howler:

"You cannot even pedal only the rear wheel of a stationary bicycle at
more than 50mph let alone a whole bicycle."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/f39ebfe7fc10d81b

***

Later, Jobst raised his 50 mph to 60 mph to show his ignorance of
roller-race times and speeds, as well as the 53x15 gearing limit in
USCF sanctioned roller racing:

"This is all meaningless because even on good rollers with narrow
large diameter drums, speeds of 60mph are not attainable."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/abaf41f6fc527936

***

The obligatory political crap:

"By substituting unlike examples contributors to this thread have been
talking like Bushmen about Iraq."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/3cfa042bc4130e0c

***

Here's the sweeping statement that Jobst is dodging--everyone doing
over 60 mph from Murphy in 1899 onward is a fraud:

"Mile-a-minute Murphy knew that he wasn't doing anything useful with
his pedals and all the guys thereafter knew it as well."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/56fa9a8f615024e7

I'm sorry you take this so personally because it makes discussion
difficult. It almost seems that you were part of John Howard's
exploits and feel personally attacked by my comments. These are my
perception of paced land speed records. You are entitled to yours.

Your approach has been to pull this down to lower and lower speeds
until, ultimately to a line of riders drafting each other in a bicycle
race. I believe that above some unclear speed the drafting concept no
longer applies. I think that should be apparent. I am primarily
interested in the speeds achieved by Howard and above. I'm sure you
can understand that at 200 mph there is no contesting that the rider
cannot contribute to propulsion other than to steer the bicycle.

That is what I am trying to convey.

Jobst Brandt
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Speed record
    ... Miles per hour speed record at the Bonneville Salt Flats ... adding a large tail fairing to the 337 MPH record holding Vesco ... I claim that at high speeds there is a forward net ... enough to propel th bicycle. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: Speed record
    ... the 138 mph Abbott single-gear bicycle is shown being pedaled ... convertible's windshield at highway speeds. ... you point out they are using motorcycle tyres. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: On low gears
    ... You and your bicycle should roll thirty feet or so. ... With gearing, the same gentle pushing lets practically any bicyclists ... The rider can't trade as much force for distance. ... Minor drags like these be easily ignored at higher speeds, ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: Speed record
    ... the 138 mph Abbott single-gear bicycle is shown being pedaled ... convertible's windshield at highway speeds. ... That's presumably about right for a normal tyre on a road bike. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)
  • Re: Speed record
    ... adding a large tail fairing to the 337 MPH record holding Vesco ... aerodynamic drag he is pedaling against to near nothing." ... enough to propel th bicycle. ... Besides, having only one gear, it would not suffice at lower speeds. ...
    (rec.bicycles.tech)