Re: What the Hell is Going on in France?


Howard Kveck wrote:
> In article <8ausm1h9f33gi792tvq35evim07g7jdveg@xxxxxxx>,
> Jack Hollis <xsleeper@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > On 6 Nov 2005 10:44:35 -0800, "Bill C" <tritonrider@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > >Curtis I'd make the argument that our minorities were, and are closer
> > >to being an integral part of our culture than what Europe is facing.
> > >Also back in the the 60s and 70s the market for unsilled and
> > >semi-skilled people wasn't shrinking drastically so there was at least
> > >a decent possibility of altering conditions somewhat to at least limit
> > >the damage.
> > > What France is now facing, and I'm afraid lot's of Europe, then us is
> > >a large immigrant population with none of the values or cultural roots
> > >of the country they are in. A poor economy which is massively
> > >exacerbated by the lack of jobs for them, due to basic costs being too
> > >high in western economies to compete with developing nations who can do
> > >the manual labor stuff so much cheaper.
> > > For large groups of these people their areas of the world either
> > >missed the Renaissance and it's humanistic changes to culture or
> > >considered the rational humanist viewpoint to be religously offensive
> > >and a crime. These by and large are the unsuccessful immigrants that
> > >western countries are trying to assimilate, it's not going to happen on
> > >any large scale.
> >
> >
> > This is exactly to the point. In the 60's the black Americans (with a
> > few exceptions) basically wanted their share of the American dream.
> > The were a few radicals like Angela Davis who were communists and were
> > dedicated to the destruction of the capitalist system. But for the
> > most part all the blacks wanted was a bigger piece of the pie. And, as
> > Bill C. points out, America was in a position to give it to them.
> >
> > The French (and many other countries in Europe) are in a whole
> > different boat. Many of the Muslims view Western culture as evil and
> > want no part of integration. Certainly, they would like to have jobs
> > and better housing, but they will gladly pass on the chance to be
> > French.
> >
> > I was reading a story about that Dutch film maker who was killed by a
> > Muslim extremist. One Dutch Muslim made a remark that stuck in my
> > mind. His point was that the Dutch want the Muslims in Holland to
> > integrate into society. However, he pointed out, if that means
> > accepting legal drugs and prostitution, gay marriage and euthanasia
> > he'd rather not integrate.
> >
> > Finally, you can be sure that the radical Islamists are happy to see
> > the problems in France. Their dream is the total destruction of
> > Western culture and they see the Muslims in Europe and potential
> > allys. To them, the more disharmony between the Muslims and the rest
> > of the Europeans the better. Not all European Muslims share this
> > dream, but you can be sure that the Islamists will take as much
> > advantage of this situation as they can.
>
> A lot of people on the right are crowing about this because they think it
> validates some, if not all, of their points regarding immigration in general and
> those swarthy Muslims in particular. France's immigration policy is a very poor
> one, at best. It calls for there to be no recognition of cultural, religious or
> ethnic differences. It isn't a matter of "those people won't assimilate." In the
> past, the French policy was one of integrationism, but with the rise of the
> right wing, including, but not limited to, Le Pen, they have changed the policy
> to "assimilation." They were able to do this because they exploited the public's
> perception that immigrants were responsible for increases in crime.
>
> Of course, since the kids doing this stuff are thought of as predominantly
> Muslim, the right here are able to start babbling about "intifadas" and
> terrorism, rather than address the real causes.
>
> http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~os0tmc/contemp1/immig2.htm
>
> --
> tanx,
> Howard
>
> The sheriff is near...
>
> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
Howard
The story you cited wraps with these three paragraphs:

Maghrebis were met with far greater hostility than the many immigrants
from Indochina (Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian asylum-seekers, the
so-called `boat people') as they were considered relative
self-sufficient and were valued for their entrepreneurial skills.
Moreover, with their attachment to Arab culture (food, dress, music
etc.) and to Islam, the Maghrebian community were perceived by many,
not least by Jean-Marie Le Pen and his supporters in Le Front national,
as a threat to the integrity of French national identity. Perceived as
a culturally alien and unassimilable mass, the Magherbis represented,
particularly during political flashpoints like the Gulf War, a menace
to French society.

Questions began to be raised about the threat to social cohesion that
these ethnic minorities were posing, particularly in the increasingly
deprived 1972 the sociologist René Giraud articulated the concept of
the seuil de tolérance (threshold of tolerance). By this he meant the
point at which the numbers of a minority group became too high for
social cohesion to be maintained. If, for example, the numbers of
minority groups became too high on a suburban housing estate, social
unrest and conflict between different ethnic groups would become
inevitable. Moreover, any breaching of the threshold of tolerance by
minority groups would entail the exodus of members of the dominant
groups, inevitably leading to mono-ethnic ghettos. This theory was a
flawed one - it did not, for example, specify the precise percentage
that would breach the threshold of tolerance - but it was an enormously
influential one.

In the space of just a few decades, immigration had gone from being an
essentially economic phenomenon to a social problem of the highest
order at the heart of political, cultural and religious debates in
France. But to what extent do those immigrants, and their children and
grand-children, of non-European descent represent a threat to French
national identity? Is the `problem' of an apparently unassimilable and
culturally alien population really all that new? And what of the
immigrants, and their children and grand-children, themselves? How have
they coped with living in France? How have they conceived of their own
identities?

It seem the only objection being raised is of not having been a
complete enough study, but there doesn't seem to be a dispute of the
basic theory in any meaninful way.
If anything the whole article supports my original contention.
Bill C
It's thrust goes hand in hand with this piece:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2005/11/06/1295496-ap.html

Malaise in French suburbs has been building for decades

By JOHN LEICESTER

Bill C

To TRG
My analysis of where French emphasis has been placed in the
Anglo/immigrant problem has been based on reading US, Canadian, mostly
English language Euro news, some German and French news. It may very
well be a false perception that has been created for me. My
recollection is of very few stories of any government actions to deal
with the immigrant problem, but I do recall tons of stories on limiting
english language news, television, radio, movies, books, etc..and
almost constant stories of government and sociological types bemoaning
the swamping of French culture by the Anglo culture and demands that
something be done.
This is my opinion, and I'm already ducking. France, like Canada seems
to me to be way to focused on what the US is doing and dealing with and
reacting to that. The US is a major player, but the monomania on US
doings is a bit much. The Canadians seem to be much much touchier on
the subject though. Having us on their southern border makes it more
immediate for them but...It's nice to see Canadian politicians pushing
Canada to start moving past this fixation with the US and develop a
broader outlook. My argument is that both are great countries on their
own, who don't need to define themselves by their positions relative to
the US but they still seem to do it anyway. Canada more so than France,
again proximity and trade play a huge part in this for them though.
I will concede that Google hits are about 1,000,000 greater for
"France immigration problem" than "france anglo culture" but this is
only the roughest of estimates.
Everything I've seen and heard matches this statemnet in the article
that I quoted above:

"For 20 or 30 years now we been closing our eyes to the problems of the
suburbs," Brice Hortefeux, France's minister for local government and a
Sarkozy ally, said Sunday on France-Inter radio. France, he said, "has
been practising the policy of an ostrich

I love Europe, including France, but I admit I follow Germany because
I consider that a second home, and the UK because it's easier much more
closely than the rest of Europe so most of the impressions I have
formed are coming through one, or both of those filters. And as you
know very well the same story will look very different for the most
part in the UK, France, and Germany.
I will be very happy to find out this is just a flare-up equivalent to
those in Britain in the last year, but I'm still not real hopeful.
As for the youths not responding to the Imam's that is happening
throughout the Islamic world where the older leaders are calling for
negotiation and peace and are being ignored as the youth turn to the
younger more radical leaders who are saying what they want to hear.
This does not make them any less driven by their religion.
The headscarf ban was brought up earlier. You don't think that created
massive resentment and fueled the feeling that they are having their
culture taken away? I know France does that to all religions, but the
Catholics and Protestants got done, for the most part, slaughtering
each other over it a couple of centuries ago. It is still an incredibly
hot force in the Islamic world, and pretending that they are going to
quietly let it go and accept French law because the other religions do
seems to be incredibly arrogant to me.
It's going to take time to see where and how this plays out, and if
their is a new core radicalisation of Islamic youth that grows from it.
France has already expelled some of the most visible leaders, but the
problem is that they have plenty of followers willing to carry on while
taking the lead from abroad, and there will be new leaders born from
the violence that is happening now.
It's not just me saying this, it's history. That has been the
historical pattern for as long as men have been in conflict.
BC

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Relevant Pages

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