Re: Biking w/o Cindy Sheehan


Bill C wrote:
> Ernst Noch wrote:
> > Bill C wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > That's a good read but still leaves it at how do you actually verify
> > > any agreement without the ability for a credible inspection team to be
> > > able to go anywhwere, at any time, with no notice? Noone is going to
> > > allow this and that's about the only thing that would give any deal a
> > > chance. Until someone can provide a methodology for making someone who
> > > has zero intention of honoring anything they agree to actually do it,
> > > it's a waste of time to make agreements. He really does a good job of
> > > pointing out that we have NO options short of total war that are
> > > workeable. Personally I see no way from keeping the Iranians from
> > > getting nukes short of an all out war fought the way ww2 was fought.
> > > Once they have them it's guaranteed that Shia Islmamic exstremists will
> > > be given them. Pakistan damn near did hand them out, and we're still
> > > not sure who got what from that because the guy who did it is totally
> > > politaccly untoucheable there.
> > > We've got to be ready to live in a world where people with the
> > > fanaticism of the Nazis, and less reatraint than the Soviets are going
> > > to be nuke capable. It's only a matter of time until a western city
> > > goes up in a cloud. No way in hell to stop a suitcase nuke from getting
> > > there and going off if they have a couple and are determined. After ir
> > > happens the west will still be unable to respond because we are
> > > pretending that the Saudis aren't funding the terror and providing the
> > > driving theology, that Pakistan is our friend, and that most of the
> > > rest of the politicians and people there wouldn't celebrate in the
> > > streets.
> > > The cheapest solution, both in terms of money and lives might very
> > > well be just to let them exterminate the Israelis and take back control
> > > of the region, which they'd be very happy to do. Then negotiate for
> > > cheap oil.
> > > Bill C
> > >
> >
> > You are falling for a common misconception here. The reason why the US
> > gouvernment and others are concerned about nuclear proliferation has
> > little to do with the probability of nukes (and especially not suitcase
> > nukes, which are much harder to build) being used for terrorism.
> > The reason why are gouvernments are - and rightly so - concerned about
> > it are the strategic consequences for a military operation against such
> > a country: There are none.
> > There is nearly no way to attack a country in possession of nukes. You
> > will never have a guarantee that you have neutralized the enemy's nukes
> > before commencing the land attack, and as soon as a tank division goes
> > in, it might go boom.
> >
> > Terrorists will likely use biological/chemical stuff for an attack.
> > From
> > http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/HomePage/WhatsNew/MedAspects/Ch-21electrv699.pdf
> > (is linkend from
> > http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/HomePage/WhatsNew/MedAspects/contents.html
> > )
> >
> > """
> > The cost
> > of a biological program is much less than either a
> > nuclear or chemical program: estimates vary from
> > $2 billion to $10 billion for a nuclear program; to
> > tens of millions for a chemical program; to less than
> > $10 million for a biological program. From a purely
> > economic standpoint, we can understand why biological
> > weapons, according to a famous saying, are
> > a poor man's nuclear bomb and can be produced
> > by Third World countries.
> >
> > Even the weapons used to deliver these agents
> > are relatively cost-effective. A group of chemical and
> > biological experts, appearing before a United Nations
> > panel in 1969, estimated that
> >
> > "for a large-scale operation against a civilian population,
> > casualties might cost about $2,000 per square
> > kilometer with conventional weapons, $800 with
> > nuclear weapons, $600 with nerve-gas weapons,
> > and $1 with biological weapons.22"
> > """
> >
> > And it's easy to take into action, you don't need planes flying over cities:
> >
> > """
> > The amounts of toxin needed to obtain the desired
> > effect are exceedingly small. "For example,
> > about 30 grams of the toxin ricin, easily concealed
> > in a pocket, would be sufficient to lethally poison
> > one batch of 150 pounds of meat, enough to produce
> > 1,500 hot dogs."46 The threat is real.
> > """
> I agree with you on almost all of your points, but from the standpoint
> of making an impression, and salvaging Islamic pride, a nuke is the
> ticket. You really have to factor in the psychology of the people,
> troops, and leadership. The Israelis used it brilliantly to plan to,
> and defeat the combined Arab Armies and their Soviet advisers. The
> Tokyo and Dresden incendiary raids both killed more people than the
> A-Bombs, and by a large percentage in Tokyo, but those really don't get
> remembered on anything near the scale of the A-Bombs. Just because they
> don't present the same almost supernatural element. Fortunately most
> chemical weapons are not that easily deployed over large areas
> succesfully, especially when covert means need to be used,
> sophisticated self replicating, but controleable bio-weapons are
> incredibly hard to build and probably present more danger to anyone who
> is trying to develop and deploy them, but first world, specially
> trained units, than the intended target. That's why the US prefers to
> use and stockpile binary weapons they give a little more of a safety
> factor.
> If this was only about effective attacks, we'd be getting hit daily.
> The Israelis are stopping a whole lot more attacks than we ever hear
> about unless you really dig. The "truce" has been a complete lie if you
> look at how many bombers have been intercepted and arrested, and that's
> by what is basically a police state at this point. They could easily
> kill and main hundreds of people worldwide daily if they were to shift
> to small, individual bombers going after soft target like they have
> been doing in Israel. I'm really surprised that they've gone for the
> Grand Operation instead of this approach. I really expected small towns
> to be hit right after 9/11 using all of the things that are available
> in everyday life.
> Here's a link to some staistics:
> http://london.mfa.gov.il/mfm/Data/79397.doc
> Here's an extract:
> In June, the Islamic Jihad was the leading organisation attempting to
> sabotage the truce. Nevertheless, it seems that the Palestinian
> Authority is still reluctant to stop its extremists. Since the February
> ceasefire, there have been 800 terror attacks: The Fatah took
> responsibility for 45 per cent of them, the Hamas for 27 per cent and
> the Islamic Jihad for 24 per cent.
> In the last few weeks, the Israeli Security Services have thwarted
> several suicide attacks, the most infamous one involving a young woman
> who intended to blow up the Israeli hospital she should have been
> treated in (20/6). In another incident, four armed terrorists tried to
> penetrate an Israeli community in the Gaza strip (18/6), weeks before
> the scheduled Evacuation.
>
> None of this makes the usual global newschannels, especially the
> english language ones such as the BBC, and the Times syndicate. If you
> look at translations of what is being said on PA television and radio
> by senior Palestinian religous and political figures it is a totally
> different picture than what we are being told.
> Here's an extractform
> http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#July26:
>
> Less than 24 hours after the July 7 terrorist bombings in London, a
> Palestinian Authority Television sermon called for the extermination of
> every single Infidel:
>
> "Annihilate the Infidels and the Polytheists! Your [i.e. Allah's]
> enemies are the enemies of the religion! Allah, disperse their
> gathering and break up their unity, and turn on them, the evil
> adversities. Allah, count them and kill them to the last one, and don't
> leave even one."
>
> [Suleiman Al-Satari, PA TV, July 8, 2005.
> This is typical of what they are saying to each other on media
> controlled by governments that we are negotiating with or supporting.
> This isn't only coming from the PA.
> Way off from even the original OT, but I thought relevant to the
> failures of US and European policy and I don't think Europes policy is
> going to be any more successful in the long run. This is what is
> generating the Arab hatred:
> Extracted from here:
> http://biblia.com/islam/islam.htm
> - Here is a list of European countries which were occupied by
> Muslims (either Arabs, Moors, or Ottoman Turks):
>
> Spain 800 years, Portugal 600 years, Greece 500 years, Sicily 300
> years, Serbia 400 years, Bulgaria 500 years, Rumania 400 years, Hungary
> 150 years... Italy, Austria, Bosnia, Croatia, Wallachia, Albania,
> Moldavia, Armenia, Georgia, Poland, the Ukraine, and eastern and
> southern Russia were all battlefields where Islam conquered or was
> conquered in violent conflicts marked by cruelty, bloodlust, and a
> fearful loss of life, spread over considerably more than a thousand
> years... stopped in France by Charles Martel.
> What do Islamic scholars have to say about offensive war? See
> Islam Offensive War to Spread
> European history has remained transfixed on the Christian
> Crusades of the eleventh to the thirteenth centuries, it has largely
> ignored these Muslim attacks and invasions...When accusing the West of
> imperialism, Muslims are obsessed with the crusades, but have forgotten
> their own longer and more gruesome Jihad.
>
> They have lost all of this, especially over the last century. Those
> dreams driven by religous fanaticism, shame, and self loathing after
> losing this empire aren't dead by any means, and as the West has been
> so much more successful they need someone to blame for what has
> happened to them. Who's easier to blame than those who finally defeated
> them? They want it back, and then some.
> Bill C

Good interview here:
http://www.reason.com/0508/fe.sd.the.shtml

The Iconoclast

Salman Rushdie discusses free speech, fundamentalism, America's place
in the world, and his new essay collection

Bill C

.

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