Re: JRRT again: CS Lewis was: Darwin, Jesus and Moses... and Wilderness

In article <PIi3k+F0arqDFwWU@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Chris Townsend <Chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>Expires here is only 2 days
>I did. My expiry is three days.

If you want thread continuity be mindful. I want to avoid archive searches.

>>>>Deja vu, that strange feeling.....
>>>>>>>>>Lord of the Rings...
>>>>>>>And before Tolkien.
>>>>NPR implied that LOTR came first (actually Hobbit).
>>>The Hobbit came much earlier. Late 30s.
>>About 18 years.
>I think the key is there was a war in between.

The issue was the spacing of volumes.


>>>>My friends point out that Oxford's dark Nationalist Socialist secret was
>>>>Hitler's plan to make Oxford New London had he conquered the British Isles.
>>>I didn't know that.
>>That's why he called it part of Oxford's dark past.
>>And a lot of people read WWII into it. And JRR didn't like that.
>
>A big difference between Tolkien and Lewis. Tolkien hated allegory.
>Lewis intentionally wrote allegory.

Allegory is lost to non-English speakers.
I appreciate what Douglas Adams said that he missed in the USA was irony.
The US may be hay seeds, but life is nicely simpler here.
It's like Joyce and Hemmingway in a way, the problem is that Joyce
should never take on a fight bigger than Ernest.

>It's still hard not to think of the descriptions of the dead in the mud
>on the Somme when reading the Dead Marshes passage in LOTR.

Well, you merely needed to see photos during the February of the Tet
Offensive to see the Marines at Khe Sanh.
Photos fail to caputre the smell of fermenting human bodies.
This is what is nice about nuclear weapons. They are so clean.
They merely simply vaporize all the water in human bodies very fast
Very clean. At least air bursts.
;^)

>>Similarly Zanuck set out to make an antiwar film about D-day in Normandy
>>and failed.
>
>I don't know that one.

The Longest Day made in the early 1960s, in an era where color was taking
over finally (except art films), in B&W. It was a big multinational (UK
immensely involved as well as French and Germans) production.
Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove was a similar time but it's black comedy
stung Americans a little too much: perhaps the funniest movie every made.

The problem is that the hawks loved it.
Misinterpreted by them. You can be too sophisticated in movie making.
Scenes likely happened too fast. And Americans don't have enough
context: like the Rangers who stormed Pont du Hoc (my dad actually knew
a couple of the real ones) who gun down unarmed surrendering Germans.
Then ask each other: I wonder what "Bitte! Bitte!" means?

So it's not a good idea to fight Americans w/o knowing English.
We WILL gun you down otherwise.

>>>>>>>>>Harry Potter is, I think, patchy. The third one is the best. The latest
>>>>>>>>>film is pretty good.
>>>>>>>I think the plot is stronger in the 3rd book and the atmosphere is
>>>>>>>darker and more serious. This comes out in the film too. The 4th and 5th
>>>>>>Does it have to be dark and serious to be better?
>>>>>Not necessarily. But the first two are very much light children's books
>>>>>with potentially dark and serious subjects and moments backed away from.
>>>Certainly the books should develop in tone as the protagonists get older
>>>but there is a big jump between books two and three.
>>Kids books can still be made from adult material.
>
>And often are. Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials trilogy mixes adult
>themes with a fantasy and is much better than HP.

The problem is that the subject matter of the book remain in the
juvenile tone or whatever you want to call it. That the characters
progress as the audience/readership progresses is merely a sliding window.

What constitutes an adult theme? Sex? The ugly underbelly of society?
War? Or is the separation of so called adult themes really more a
misguided Victorian prudishness? Stuff the French laughs at.
People die in the outdoors. Didn't a house fall on and kill a witch in
one notable story? We are "sheltering" kids from death?
When kids are carrying AKs and SKSes elsewhere in the world (see the
beginning of Lord of War).

>>The problem is that our world sends mixed signals about growing up.
>>We have very vague notions about the experience (some call it innocence)
>>of childhood. Bronowski called it the neoteny of intellect.
>The media tend to wrap children up in an idealised world and object if
>children don't fit into this.

It's not the media. It's a certain upper class mentality (I won't use
elite) held largely by certain women. Don't get wrong: ideals are good,
reaching them is the issue.

>I'm surprised at how many adults can't remember what childhood was like.

Well, there are 2 aspects:
1) how well do you really remember your childhood?
2) what do you remember? (the content)

Childhood isn't always what its cracked up to be.
Piaget has good stuff about early human development which is
adult irrational but kid rational. Lots of adults don't make it past there.
Is the earth flat?

I had a pretty good, better than most of the world, childhood. Far from
perfect, my parents likely could have done more. I grew up in California
at a time when the educaiton system here was expanding. There were
adverse times as well: there was the Cold war. I did play with my
limited number of little Army men (this was before GI Joe).
Then I discovered libraries.

So what is it that you were thinking? How was yours.


"Describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind
about your mother."


>>The harsh reality is that a large number of kids walk around with AK-47s
>>and RPGs. And 1st world adults cry foul. But they have simplistic
>>notions of "Johnny go out and play...."
>
>And simplistic notions of the "third" world.

The third world has parts which are very basic: you live or you get shot
and die.

Is life cheap?
We would like to think not.
The reality is that it is. It's not the value we think it is,
it's the value of the person potentially aiming a weapon at you.
People in the 1st world are getting tired of giving aid.
It helps not being European some times. One the other hand begin
surrounded by European descendents can be like being one of the Indians.

>>>>Bilbo as a Hobbit wasn't very deep either.
>>>Another children's book. a neat book.
>A favourite. Having just reread The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe I'd
>say The Hobbit was far better.

Hmmmm. Seem and sounds calmer. Excepting Sting of course.

>>>>Sometimes too much is made of depth.
>>>Of course. As children's books the first two Harry Potters are fine,
>>>certainly as good as the Narnia books though not as good as The Hobbit.
>>So what happened?
>
>The children are growing up. I think Rowling realised that the tone that
>worked with 11 year old protagonists was too childish with 12 year old
>ones.

Yes, this is true (above). And other writers spoke of full or
developing bosoms in the past (e.g. Hester...).

>>>>But then there is the issue of history....
>>>History of?
>>2 types or kinds:
>>Human chronology, and personal chronology (experience).
>>The US to credit and shame skips the history (Saddam talking about why
>>he invade Kuwait), or the various Balkans faction, and attempts nation
>>building, peace keeping, etc.
>
>The UK skips Saddam and Balkan history too.

Yes, that mess is continuing. He's fallen and he can't get up.
I wonder how it will all end?

That's humankind.
The question is also personal STM. That's what's in the cache.
Otherwise called context.

>>Mallory:
>>>>Yeah, I think I told you Rick think's his grand Dad made summitted.
>>>His clothing wouldn't have stopped him.
>>No, clothing owuld not have stopped him.
>
>There seems to be an assumption by some people that Everest couldn't be
>climbed there because modern equipment didn't exist. As though every
>attempt is successful now and there are no longer any deaths ......

Well for Mallory, "modern" gear helped, just not enough.
Gary makes this point that Scott as well had the most modern gear.
No deaths is merely naive, arm chair lack of experience.
At least the Germans had no assumptions of that type on
invincibility/immortality. They have a different one.

>>>>Now calling Mr. Irvine....
....
>>>I don't have a day job :-)
>>Wow! YOU are SOOOOO luckyyyyy. 8^)
>
>Being self-employed has its advantages.

My dad was. He had his ups and downs. Mom bore the brunt.
But then he had to fight in France.

>>>>>>>>>Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten is entertaining and
>>>>>>>>>thought provoking.
>>>>>>>100 thought experiments of various kinds (not all moral/ethical ones).
>>>>>Baggini is a philosopher.
>>>>A strike against him.
>>>Maybe. He writes some interesting stuff in newspapers and increasingly
>>>appears on the radio.
>>So does William Demment, no scratch that. He doesn't writing
>>interesting stuff.
>
>Another name I don't know.

Typo:

Consciousness explained / Daniel C. Dennett

He coauthored a number of articles and a book or 2 with:
Douglas R. Hofstadter.

Doug I like. Daniel: is a waste of time. Just like Gary Snyder.

>>>The book does provoke thinking.
>>Naw, it depends. Swamp gas can be made to sound interesting.
>
>The book makes me think, anyway. Even if its only to work out why an
>analogy doesn't work.

One thing I knew when I started grad school was raised on my first day
but I missed (late) given by a friend now on panel 16: the example of
Moire patterns. They look good/interesting, but unless you are a
mathematician studying them: they have no application/no use.
We live in a world of use. Now that's one of my strawmen.

>>>>>Some of the experiments are rather artificial.
>>>>Artifical or contrived?
>>>Both
>>A limited number of contrived things: is OK, not too many.
>>Too many is a waste.
>
>This is the problem with writing a "100 of" book. Some are fillers.

A fluff bit.

>>>>>>the creature breed to be eaten.
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