Re: Ju-252
- From: "Geoffrey Sinclair" <gsinclairnb@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 01:02:18 +1000
<eunometic@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:c89898bd-f1c6-4fd4-af13-474ff0eaf59d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Sep 22, 5:24 pm, "Geoffrey Sinclair" <gsinclai...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
<eunome...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ef04dc2b-7ffa-4b63-8d09-75b3976bc151@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Its arguable that had the Luftwaffe replaced a few hundred outmoded Ju
52 with Ju 252 that the Stalingrade airlift might have succeded in
supply enough food, fuel and amunition. It certainly could have
succeded in terms of capacity.
My but the jokes keep on coming.
The joke is, as per usual, on yourself.
My but the jokes keep on coming.
Firstly ignore the Ju252 V1 first flew in June 1942, and another
3 prototypes had flown by the end of November 1942. It was not
until the fourth prototype that a loading ramp was fitted.
Getting an aircraft into the air is a matter of priorities.
Transport aircraft were clearly under-emphaised.
Yes folks wish real hard, instead of maybe not having the army
there in the first place to be surrounded, invent a major transport
force that just happens to be idle and full strength and winter proof.
Meantime the USSBS reports in 1941 the Germans built 969
transports out of 10,501 aircraft in 1942 it was 1,265 out of
14,731 aircraft.
At the end of 1941 the Luftwaffe had a real aircraft crisis, the
most extreme was the bomber units, 50% authorised strength,
50% available bombers serviceable.
Over in the US in 1941 transports totalled 532 in 1941, out
of 19,445 aircraft, and 1,985 out of 47,675 aircraft in 1942.
US transport production then took off in both numbers and
as a percentage of total production.
The Ju252 useful load 9 tonnes, top speed 273 mph, about twice
the weight of the Ju52.
The Ju52 useful load 4 tonnes, top speed 168 mph.
The cruising speed difference is far more stark. Jumo engines had a
reputation for high fuel efficiency at high power levels that allowed
efficient high speed cruise. Basically the Ju 252 is twice as fast.
Given the relative top speeds a cruising speed of around twice
as much is not surprising.
Of course given the initial distances the extra speed is not that
important, compared with landing, take off and turn around times.
So given the easier handling of cargo and deducting the allowance
for crew, defensive armament and fuel, the Ju252 would be worth
around 2.5 to 3 Ju52. Against that is the need for better airfields
and a more vulnerable target when landing or taking off.
There is no indication that the Ju 252 would require significantly
better airfields.
Translation the Ju252 was never used but it is assumed it will
have no need for better airfields than the Ju52. Oh sorry, I
forgot, the Ju52 can operate better on inferior airfields, so time
to decide to replace the Ju52 with something else for comparison
purposes.
Remember we are here to make the Ju252 look good, so
evidence and criteria will be changed as required.
The He 111 did alright as a transport at Stalingrad
It had its origins as a transport, remember? A bomb bay
can carry a lot of say ammunition of the containers are
available, blanking off fuel tanks for army fuel is another
approach, assuming the tanks can handle the different fuel.
though the He 177 did no better due to loadout limitations due to its
inferior landing and takeoff performance.
Actually the engines were the big problem. It also shows a
larger aircraft is not an automatic major increase in capacity.
Certainly the other competitor to the Ju 252/Ju 352 was the Arado Ar
232 and Ar 232B.
Time now to decide to use yet another aircraft, remember the Ju252
had about 4 prototypes flying at the time.
This aircfat for instance had a takeoff run of only 200m and due to it
22 'millipede' feet could not only 'squat' to lower itself into a better
loading position but traverse soggy soggy ground and
ditches as much as 1.5m.
At least it looks like there might be more Ar232 versions flying in
November 1942, at least 4 had flown to that date. Nearly 10
tonne useful load.
Do not worry, the Dornier C-130 Hercules will be trotted out
if needed. The 6th Army will be supplied. A Sun God might
appear as well, Ra, Ra.
The pocket needed 650 tonnes of supplies a day according to 6th
Army, at say 6 tons per Ju352 (do not forget the packaging of the
supplies,
The Ju 252 trapoklappe loading ramp would allow relatively efficient
bulk packing for some goods eg ammunition cases whch already come in
boxes.
The packaging has to be able to take the weight, and so it
weighs a noticeable part of the total load. Similar for the
bracing to make sure the cargo stays where it is supposed to.
Furthermore the packaging has to be recycled or steadily supplied.
Jerry cans of water or fuel and Fuel drums add maybe 10%.
US Army jerrycan weight 10.5 pounds, loaded with fuel 41
pounds, loaded with water around 54 pounds, so the usual
Eunometic I wish result is shown to be wrong, as usual.
Sixth army wanted 300 tonnes of fuel a day, or 400 tonnes
of airlift counting the jerricans, plus additional weights to
make sure the cans stayed in place during the trip.
Pumpernickel Bread in paper (german k-rations), Caned food very
little.
I would propose that packing allowances had already been made.
Of course, because the whole idea is it will work, facts are
not going to stand in the way.
By the way the decision was taken to not send in food, it was
fuel and ammunition, things like the Romanian Cavalry horses
would be used for food. When they ran out food would be
added to the cargo mixes.
Of course ammunition and fuel consumption would depend on
the level of Red Army attacks, things like spare parts on how
long the siege lasted, things like tank engines need repairs and
replacements.
they have weight, one of the US Army's main efforts in
WWII was creating appropriate packaging, not to mention the
great difficulties of ending up full and down, that is all space used
just as the weight limit is hit, or vice versa), means around 120
sorties per day, allowing for interceptions and mechanical failure
type aborts.
The Ju 252 had far greater cruise speeds; over 240mph that would have
allowed it to complete its transit in less than 50% of the time of a
Ju 52 which cruised at less than 120mph.
Ju52/3mg3c cruise 134 mph. As can be seen the Ju52 needs to
be written down, in order to make the Ju252 look good, you
would have thought the Ju252 was a major advance, but the
Eunometic 252 needs to be even better.
By the way Eunometic is using the maximum cruising speed
of the Ju252, not the normal one.
Since the initial airfield was 125 miles from Stalingrad the
Ju52 would do the round trip in slightly under 2 hours, at
the above cruise speed, the Ju252 slightly over an hour, at
high speed cruise. Then add the relevant pre flight, post flight,
climb, landing, take off load, unload etc. times to obtain the
actual turn around time.
Due to the 'trapoklappe'
rear loading lamps even the turnarounds are likely to have been twice
as fast due to the level floor and ground level access and so we have
the Ju 252 not only carrrying 2.5 times the Ju 52 cargo but doing
twice as many trips: 5 times as much cargo. The aircraft had also
been designed for delivery of large para retarded loads through the
rear ramp.
In reality the ground crew at Stalingrad was in real trouble, the
weather, the crashed aircraft, the Soviet attacks, they were not
very efficient as a result, then the ration cuts came.
Eunometic is simply working backwards from the preferred
conclusion.
It is not like the Germans were set up with cargoes designed to
fit into the transport aircraft. The Ju252 would have been better
than the Ju52, that is obvious, the Eunometic 252 is the joke.
The Ju 252 was a class act, superior in many ways to the C46 and C54
the later of which wasn't even pressurised. It could even have
carried two tons of cargo from Germany to New York with reserves. In
many ways it was a 'strategic' transport.
Yes folks, the Eunometic 252 arrives with trumpets blaring.
Meantime the C-46 was in serial production, useful load 23,600
pounds versus the 19,600 pounds of the Ju252, range 1,200
miles.
C-54, also in serial production, useful load 25,000 pounds, range
3,900 miles. Douglas started building some in 1940 as a low
priority project, 26 delivered in 1942.
Do not worry, if necessary the paint job will be superior
Maximum speed was 272 mph (438 km/h) with a maximum cruising speed of
242 mph (390 km/h). The service ceiling was 20,670 ft (6300 m). Range
of 2,473 miles (3980 km) with maximum payload (7 tons or 9 tons if
overloaded on a good airfield). With only 4,410 lbs (2000 kg) of
payload range increased to 4,100 miles (6600 km). Empty the aircraft
weighed 28,880 lbs (13100 kg), with a normal load out it weighed
49,560 lbs (22480 kg) and with maximum overload it weighed 52,910 lbs
(24000 kg). It had a span of 111 ft 10 in (34.09 m); length 82 ft 4 in
(25.10 m); height 18 ft 10 1/4 in (5.75 m) and a wing area of 1,320 sq
ft (122.3 sq m).
In case people are wondering the normal difference between
empty and loaded for a Ju252 was just under 9 tonnes, which
has to accommodate cargo, fuel and crew etc. Eunometic adds
2 tonnes and assumes it is all available.
I note the Ju252 receives overload benefits but the other types
do not.
Of course it was winter of the steppe, the number of good flying
days and the hours of daylight means there would need to be a
surge on good weather days. Plus of course the airfields in the
pocket would need to cope with the bigger aircraft.
500 tons was considered the subsistence level.
650 tons minimum, 9 tons of cargo per aircraft means 74 sorties are
required.
Yes folks, the aircraft make it there without using fuel , nor
carrying crew or defensive armament, food is a gelatinous
mass poured into the cargo area to avoid packaging weight.
And so on.
Oh yes, none of the aircraft have mechanical problems, crash
land, or even get shot down.
Oh sorry, Stalingrad has been declared a good airfield, Eunometic
will fly overloaded transports across enemy territory with their
approach to Stalingrad covered by AA guns. I think the world
has found a commander who would do worse at Stalingrad than
Hitler, even with hindsight.
The reality of the true airlift is being totally ignored.
If each aircraft did two sorties per day then 37 aircraft
are required.
People may care to note the amount of daylight in the area
in the November to January period. The fact 2 days out of
3 have low cloud in winter.
You sort of wonder how come the real airlift failed if only
37 Ju252 were needed, which translates to maybe 100
to 150 other transports.
Assuming a distance of 1000/km or 600miles from the
frontline a round trip would require 5 hours or 6 assuming loading and
unloading. So one trip arriving in the early morning that returned
with more cargo 5.5 hours latter.
The airheads were initially under 200 miles from Stalingrad,
Eunometic really does not have an clue about what is going
on, only the Ju252, cure for all transport woes, call your Junkers
dealer today, mention Eunometic to get them laughing.
Essentially the Eunometic 252 takes off alone and flies straight to
the airfield, no messy formations or escorts, it travels at an
average speed of 240 mph, including take off, climb and landing.
It obviously takes off pre dawn, to arrive in the area at dawn, then
flies back, taking only half an hour to unload at that end.
Similar turn around at the other end.
People might want to note the Germans assembled a transport
fleet with the required capacity, if they were working, and usually
managed 100 tons per day and often zero, thanks to the weather.
Such was the performance of this aircraft that 74 of them could have
supplied Stalingrad all the way from Berlin and flown all the way back
with a small cargo of wounded and other evacuees without even
refueling.
Yes folks, the Eunometic 252 does not consume fuel, everything
is cargo, furthermore it can now do a trip Stalingrad to Berlin,
1,390 miles one way, call it 2,800 miles at 240 mph 11 hours
and 40 minutes in the air but carry 9 tonnes of cargo, leaving
something like 2 tonnes, assuming the Eunometic overload
bonus for fuel and crew might be correct.
By the way the Ju252 maximum range was 4,100 miles, normal
was 2,485 miles, do not forget to add fuel reserves on such a long
flight. And the optimum ranges are for normal cruise, not fast cruise.
This is becoming very funny.
Allowing for damage, repairs, losses and some replacements from new
production 100 would have sufficed. Of course some other types such
as the Ju 52 would have been also available.
Yes folks the Ju52 is allowed a supporting role, but stand back
and admire the Eunometic 252, zero fuel cannot stop it, zero crew
cannot stop it, huge distances cannot stop it, of course common
sense can stop it cold.
It would have dramatically improved Rommels supply situation in Nth
Africa.
Eunometic has obviously never studied logistics.
I await the Eunometic floating rail line, from Italy to North Africa,
across the Mediterranean.
It was of course the bad weather and the lack of airfields in the
pocket that destroyed airlift capacity, with help from the Red
Air Force and AA gunners. The Germans had 300 aircraft present
designated as transports in December. None of them had the
capacity of the Ju252 but they had a much bigger lift than was
delivered to the pocket.
The problem was that many were spending time refueling or acting as
relays.
Apparently it was a very mild winter with plenty of daylight in
the Eunometic world.
Furthermore the supply system and airfields are assumed to be
set up to handle the bulk cargo.
Reality was different.
The problem was that only 40% of the aircraft were in a flyable
condition becuase the crews and aircraft had been exhausted.
By the way note above the Eunometic 252 is never unserviceable,
nor short of crews etc.
The reason they had been exhausted is becuase the crappy performance
in temrs of range, speed, load of the Ju 52 meant inefficiency.
Yes folks apparently Tante Ju was a real crock. Of course in
reality the airforce was exhausted because of operations, and
then the great problems of trying to keep flying in the weather
and keep the aircraft flyable with minimal specialist winter tools.
The Eunometic 252 comes complete with totally rested
staff, winter flying equipped airfields, with excellent supply
lines, zero mechanical failures and no accidents.
Meantime the real Stalingrad airlift cost, by 3 February 1943,
269 Ju52, 169 He111, 9 Fw200, 1 Ju290, 5 He177 and 42
Ju86, total 495.
Its
good points being ease of serviceabillity and STOL like behaviour that
was nvertheless inferior to the Ar 232.
Now let us see the Ju52 was around in 1932, the Ar232 knew
what it had to beat the best part of a decade later.
Those bombers pressed into servive as tansports were also inefficient
as cargo aircraft.
Of course, but then airlifting bulk supplies is inefficient to start with.
Furthermore the poor range of the Ju 52 meant it needed its own fuel
supply trail which itself caused wastage of resources and double
handling.
The Ju52 had a normal range of 568 miles or 915 km, the airfields
were initially located about 125 and 170 miles from Stalingrad but
a Soviet attack then pushed the closest German controlled airfield
back to 220 miles away in January 1943.
The wonder Ar234 had a range of 658 miles.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
.
- References:
- Ju-252
- From: Rob Arndt
- Re: Ju-252
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- Re: Ju-252
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- Re: Ju-252
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