Re: Stuka retreating to Berlin.


"Rob" <teuton263@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:b3cdcc60-23d2-4625-924d-258a2569a97e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Aug 16, 1:39?pm, "Keith Willshaw"
<keithnos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Rob" <teuton...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:a688c743-5f2d-4c43-bf4e-708486f7b17d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Aug 16, 12:05?pm, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Aug 16, 8:59 am, Rob <teuton...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
so much it broke their spirit and the Nazi's began a slow painful
retreat,
back to burned out black Berlin.
?The Russians acquired a new sport, shooting Nazi's asses as they
slithered back to the hole they came from.
Ken- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Gee Ken, I guess these factors weren't present:
1) The fall/winter mud and snow that slowed Army Grouop Center

As one old Russian soldier said.

'They are funny people these Germans, they came to fight in Russia
wearing
summer uniforms and fancy leather boots and then acted surprised when
winter
arrived and they got frostbite. Did they expect the weather to change for
them ?'

Keith

... and yet Army Group Center reached within 12 miles of Moscow
anyway- had the two OTHER Army Groups with another 1.2 million men and
all their equipment were combined, no doubt Moscow would have fallen
and they would have made it there much faster IMHO.

A century before another European dictator though capturing Moscow
would end the war, he was wrong too.

Remember also that in 1941 the avg Soviet hated Stalin more than the
invading Germans.

Wrong. While the Ukrainians intially received the Germans as liberators
the Russians fought the invader as they had always done - for Mother Russia


It was not until the SS rolled in and the Stalingrad
destruction that the hatred turned against the Germans towards
preservation of the Motherland and Stalin propagandized that to death

Death was the reward for most of those who saw Germany as
a liberator when the official policy of the Reich became that
no consideration of the survival of the civlian populace
be taken.

while keeping MGs and political officers attached to the Red Army to
"ensure" the patriotism of the Soviet soldier while murdering their
officers and all the innovative intellectual civilian weapons makers.

Your are confusing the pre war and wartime periods.

BTW, Germany was not defeated in the USSR at Moscow nor Stalingrad but

So how is it that the 6th Army was destroyed and army group centre
thrown back in confusion ?

after Kursk and still the Germans held the line as they were slowly
pushed back.

All the way to Berlin


The Waffen SS augmented the German Army and inflicted
tremendous losses on the Soviet soldiers, the civilian populations,
and destroying the land but a third time in the withdrawl.

Does that make you feel good ?

You can still go to various places in the former-USSR that are utterly
destroyed and were never rebuilt. Tanks, artillery pieces, AFVs, lay
strewn across that vast nation.

Bullshit. I have been to St Petersburg when it was still called Leningrad
and while you could see the shell craters from the plane the Soviets
did a great job of rebuilding, its a pity they never grasped the concept
of maintenance of course but there you are.

And another point- the Battle of Berlin. Soviets lied about numbers
killed and I always wondered about the 300,000 they claimed in their 6
week campaign against roughly 50 under-strength German and SS
Divisions. In fact, they lost 660,000 troops out of 1.2 million- over
half their strength with Berlin in ruins and the Germans deluged by
armor, a/c, and artillery barrages.

Channelling der Fuhrer are we ?


Even in defeat the Germans still took a huge toll on the Red Menace
and then postwar we took Goebbel's term "Better Dead than Red" and had
to fight 4.5 decades of a Cold War in which Germany remained intact,
rebuilt, and eventually reunified.

Intact !

What about the DDR then ?

When did Germany recover East Prussia, Danzig and Konigsberg ?


The cost of the Cold War was astronomical compared to WW2 and Germany
paid practically for none of it. They recovered and made money.

Actuallly Germany paid a LOT of money for it both for their own
soldiers and contributing to the US and UK forces stationed there

How is Russia doing by comparison? Living little better than the cold
war days with a fanatical Putin and making some petro dollars to try
to fuel a resurgent hardliner superpower has been nation that has to
export its best weapons to keep its military and projects alive in the
face of Chinese competition?

Working as I do with a software company in St Petersburg I can
confidently say they are better off than they would have been
as a slave race for the turd Reich


Again, who really lost in the long-term?

The Nazis

Keith


.

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