Re: "Watson's Wizards" and the Me-262

"Eunometic" <eunometic@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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On Apr 25, 5:10 pm, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Eunometic" <eunome...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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On Apr 22, 4:57 pm, "Keith Willshaw" <keithnos...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"tankfixer" <paul.carr...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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In article <e45be3b0-b112-4c0c-b39c-feb9223e40f3
@w5g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, teuton...@xxxxxxx says...

Ar-234 Blitz
Ba-349 Natter
He-162 Volksjaeger
He-176*
He-178*
He-280
Ho-IX/Go-229
Ju-248
Ju-287*
Me-163 Komet
Me-262 Schwalbe
Me-262C HS-1 and 2*
Me-328
Reichenburg R.I-IV
WNF-342*

Looks like a collasal waste of resources for a country that couldn't
even keep provide enough tanks to fully equip her armies.

It is typical of the disjointed fragmentary nature of Nazi war
production.
More than half of those aircraft were testbeds or research aircraft
built to gather data,

Far less than half, the HE-176 and He-178 certainly fall into that
category
and were low cost projects early in the war, the WNF-342 was also
basically a research project. The rest were intended for production as
service aircraft

The Ju 287 was a test bed. Admittedly serious design work did come
out of this.

We have an aircraft weighing in at 12,000 Kg to test the wing idea,
with the first flight in August 1944, and ordered under a bomber
program, with bombers being abandoned for any sort of production
before the prototype flew. Though later came a request to build
100 Ju287 per month.

The V1 prototype flew, the V2 was nearly complete by the end
of the war and the V3 was the bomber prototype with a 4,000
kg bomb load.

Perhaps the waste of resources can be seen by the fact it was such
a big aircraft, a research prototype could have been a lot smaller.

And perhaps the fact it was a wing that was going to be used would
help the economics as well.

(snip the usual motherhood comments of how good it was and
how it was supposed to influenced the design of other aircraft).

The Me 328 maned pulse jet or single use fighter bombers was
abandoned.

Me 328 design studies began in mid 1941, with the proposal being for
6 different versions, 3 fighter and 3 fighter bomber.

In March 1943 came the idea it could be used as a fast low level bomber,
glider trials began in the northern autumn of 1943. Some 10 prototypes
were built, there was a pre production batch in 1944 as well.

The problems with the design were a reason the manned version of the
V1 was tried.

Perhaps the design could have been abandoned earlier? One solution to
the pulse jet vibration problem was standard jet engines, but that meant
the aircraft was no longer cheap.

So sure it was abandoned but look at the effort that was expended before
it was abandoned.

The Reichenburg R.I-IV was a Fi 103 with a cockpit. A modified Me
328 was an alternative to this semi-suicide machine.

Actually it seems it could be the other way around. One use
proposed for the Me328 was as a manned missile.

The Me 163 was canceled but a relatively minor modification known as
the Ju 248 or Me 263 was almost completed to overcome the
range difficulties and lack of pressurization. This series of rocket
aircraft is to overcome a serious problem: intercepting photo recons
and penetrating the escorting fighter screen of Bombers.

Over 250 Me163, built, production starting 3 months before the
Me262, with something like 237 accepted in 1944, versus 301 Me262.

The range meant it was a waste of time. The "minor modification"
to create the Me263 raised the endurance form 8 to 15 minutes.
Problems with speeds above mach 0.8 ensured no Me263 production.

A fundamental waste of resources. In effect the same pattern
was repeated in 1945. Germany was clearly being defeated, only
a long shot coming home was going to change things. Hence all
those projects and all those Luftwaffe 1946 people believing
the new designs would have worked in record time and performed
according to the claims.

The Ba 246 was a solution to a problem of vertical takeoff and landing
(since airfields were vulnerable) and, penetrating the escorting
fighter screen. So long as it worked reliably it just might have been
effective and been the answer to a desperate problem.

Ah yes, something the Me163/263 could point to and say they
were longer ranged (well not really but the Ba246 radius of action
was 25 miles at 39,500 feet). Something like 10 prototypes and
20 production versions.

Same problems as the Me163, the range was so short it was a
point defence weapon and required very good intelligence on
where the enemy aircraft were.

Another waste of resources. Of course "if it had worked"
is added, you know leaning out of your aircraft and duelling
with swords could have been deadly, if it had worked.

Of course using the V2 rocket technology to solve the simpler
problem of shorter ranged AA missiles and switching from
wonder short ranged aircraft to missile guidance systems
would have produced better results, it could have hardly
produced worse.

The Ar 234 was simply a good and valuable aircraft.

The Me 262 was also a valuable aircraft had the potential to be a
versatile recon, fighter and night fighter.

So far so good.

Since its Mach limit was
about M0.84 which is about 570mph (something it reached in tests with
the new more powerful Jumo 004D replacing the usual Jumo 004B). It
clearly needed more aerodynamic refinements.

Except the 004C and D were effectively experimental engines
in early 1945.

And the problems of the high mach aerodynamics were not solved
over night.

The He 280 was not proceeded with, so here we have a case of the
Germans not splitting resources.

If you believe Heinkel the wrong decision was made. The He280
was faster than the Me262 using the same power, a big draw back
being it had two thirds the range.

The Ho 229 was of course preceded with; though its hard to imagine
that the Horton brothers and their wooden prototypes wasted resources
or design effort and that an old wooden aircraft was pretty sensible
considering Germanies reource problems.

Since Horten were a minor player it made little difference to the
overall effort, rather like Martin Baker in England.

Then came the idea to build the Ho IX as the Gotha 229 with
a Luftwaffe order for 30 machines.

That leaves the He 162 'peoples fighter'. A last ditch effort to
mass produce 4000 aircraft a month of an aircraft that a teenager
could fly fast enough to be safe from allied escorts. It almost
worked though it was too late and the handling was not much good.

I like the definition of it almost worked followed by handling was not
much good. Sort of like the Avro Manchester, it almost worked but
the engines were not much good.

It is simply another attempt at a longshot and the chief point of the
design was the ability for poorly trained pilots to use it. So it was
a real waste of resources when it proved tricky to fly.

Producing more Me 109K, Fw 190A or piston types is not going to change
anything. What was needed was masses of superior weapons hence the
struggle to find them.

Followed by lots of people post war dreaming they would have worked,
"if only".

several of the others are derivatives of
production types that could be considered either development aircraft
for advancing that type or as pure testbeds. One can hardly use a
forward swept test bed (Ju 287) made out of the parts bin of scrapped
and crashed german and allied bombers an example of disjoint
production. Likewise with the tip jet helicopter test bed the WNF
346. Even the Ju 248/Me 263 was simply a stretched and modified Me
163.
The allies had the luxury, perhaps it could be argued the neccesity,
of duplicated multiple types. This provided a safety backup in case
of technical failures or delays. Britan produced no less than 3
different 4 engined bombers and had an additional 2 flying prototypes
that never made it to production.

The British heavies were designed to Air Ministry Specification P.13/36
issued in 1936 - long before the war started

This covers the Sterling or the perhaps Halifax, Warwick and
Manchester ALL of which were originally two engined designs.
Although only the Warwick stayed so. All of these led to prototypes
and mass production,

Stirling to specification B12/36, 4 engined.
Manchester to specification P13/36, twin engined.
Warwick, to specification B1/35, twin engined.
Halifax, to specification P13/36, started out as a twin, moved to
4 engines in 1937.

Windsor to specification B5/41, four engined.
Lincoln, to specification B14/43, but actually the design came
first, the specification written to match the then Lancaster IV and
V ideas, 4 engined. Production began in 1945 delayed by the need
for Lancasters.

By the way why was the Shackleton mentioned when its
first flight was in March 1949? It used the Lincoln wings
and undercarriage mated to a new fuselage.

Avro produced a whole family of designs including transports
from 1939 to 1949.

At the time the Luftwaffe was mucking around with the Dornier Do 19
and junker Ju 89 4 engine bomber. Both were abandoned.

The Luftwaffe Ural bomber specification was cancelled in April
1937, the Ju89 had flown in December 1936, the Do 19 even
earlier, in October.

The Stirling first flew in 1939, as did the Manchester, the Warwick
and the Halifax.

The Windsor first flew in 1943.

So at the same time means Luftwaffe in 1936 and 1937 and the RAF
in 1939 and 1940.

Nice time shift.

However the Ju 89 bomber evolved into the Ju 90 airliner/transport
which became the Ju 290A1 transport which evolved to the Ju 290A7
maritime reconnaissance aircraft and was to become the Ju 290B 4
engined bomber. Production run of the entire Ju 290A series was
perhaps 60 aircraft.

Ah yes, the Ju89, 17,000 kg empty, the Ju90 19,250 kg empty
the Ju290a-5 24,000 Kg empty.

The meaning of evolved is being stretched here so the Ju89 looks
less of a waste.

The Ju290 was built as a transport, to make it a bomber basically
required a new fuselage, think Lancaster versus York. A (war) rose
by any other name?

It's fairly obvious that the Ju 89/Ju 90/ju 290 series could have
evolved to an effective 4 engine bomber,

Yet again what the Germans did not do it used to tell us what
they could have done. Things like the He177 tend to make
the evolution claims less credible.

yet resources were scare and
a strategic bombing doctrine didn't exist in the otherwise doctrinally
sophisticated Luftwaffe.

It appears pre war the Luftwaffe did have a high percentage of those
who believed in what the allies called strategic bombing and morale
effects, after all look at Hitler's ideas about morale. Check out the
pre war doctrine which allowed for strategic operations.

The Luftwaffe was going to open the Polish campaign with operation
Wasserkante, a major strike on Warsaw with one aim being to
paralyse the Poles and hurt morale, plus destroy Polish industry. After
all the idea the campaign was going to last such a short time was not
part of the plan. Bad weather delayed the strike and it was not until
the siege of Warsaw that major air raids were undertaken on the city.
The strike force included a number of Ju52s literally shovelling
incendiaries out of the cargo door.

See also the development of radio navigation systems which, given
their fixed placements, were mainly an aid to find fixed targets at
medium range. Most of the bombing of Britain from the second
week of September 1940 onwards was "strategic", the Baedeker
raids were direct attacks on morale.

Also check out the Luftwaffe raids on Moscow in August/September
1941, after the city came within range.

The next point is to remember the He111 and Ju88 would have been
classified as heavy bombers by the RAF in the late 1930's. The
designation changed when the 4 engined types began appearing.

The reason seems to be a lack of design and development resources.

The pre war designs were simply killed by powerplant problems and
the fact they were not as necessary to Germany given the Nazis
considered places like Poland, France and the USSR as enemies.
It also helped the numbers game to build smaller aircraft.

The wartime Luftwaffe heavy bombers, the He177, Ju288 were killed by
powerplant problems again, the Do317 was more a resource issue.

The Ju488 was going to be a heavy bomber and so on.

So whereas the RAF ends up with 4 heavy bombers (including the
Warwick) the Luftwaffe ends up only with the He 177. The Ju 290 was
simply a transport.

The "simple transport" Ju290 however can evolve.

The RAF types were the usual pre war situation, think Wellington,
Hampden, Whitley.

Or Do19, He111, Ju88. (Ju188, Do217)

Meantime if the Windsor, empty weight 29,000 pounds, is a heavy
bomber so is the Ju288, and probably the Do317. Do not forget
the Me264.

Oh yes, if the Junkers designs evolved how does the Manchester,
Lancaster, Lincoln etc. family seems to be counted as more than 1?

By the way where does the Fw200 fit in? And these,

The He274, one prototype nearly built before being abandoned.
The He277, since it is counted below.

There were pointless odd balls such
as the Warick. The unitied states had its failures such as the
XP-54, XP-55. XP56 and their 'hyper' engines.

The Warwick was designed as a twin to meet specification
B.l/35 issued in mid-1935

The same as the Manchester?

No. See above.

The German researchers were trying to take advantage of the new jet
engines and the unique swept wing technology they were developing.

Indeed but they seem to have split scarce resources in doing so

Perhaps but in most cases they wasted little manpower except that of
the design department of the various aero companies. Even then there
are cases of design work being transfered.

What I like is the idea the Germans had plenty of aero engineers
so they could go off and make up all the various designs and
somehow this was going to have little cost, versus say improvements
in existing types for a start.

The question is could the Nazi regime have turned this research effort
into qualitatively better mass produced piston engined fighters?

The RAF found, with the Sabre, the basic rule.

The power output of reliable powerplants determine the performance
characteristics. Then comes the aerodynamics to ensure the aircraft
could be flown well and able to best use the power available.

All of the major companies had formidable design capabilities though
most of them were building other companies aircraft.

Perhaps it could be pointed out that maybe the system could have
done with fewer efforts like the Ju287?

So possibly a super fighter, better than both the Fw 190 and Me 109
could have been made if the research institutions had of ignored their
swept wing research and focused on perhaps some of the the handling
issues of the Me 109 (roll rate) could have been resolved or the fw
190 (sudden stall) but would that have interfered with production?

Forget the super fighter, that required reliable powerplants in the
2,000 HP or more class, or really good aerodynamics, like the P-51.
Even so the reality was piston engined fighters were not going to go
much faster than 450 mph.

And yes, effort put into fixing the flaws of the standard fighters would
have helped, they can hardly hurt, but there were no super fighters.
The Fw190D-9, Ta152 etc. closed the gap with the latest allied
designs.

The problems they had related to barely sufficient thrust of the jet
engines to exploit the new know how and concerns over intake length or
intake losses. It was considered necessary to minimize intake duct
lengths, this tended to emphasise short flying wing or pod and boom
aircraft. They needed to keep wetted area low which also emphaised
those structures.

True but irrelevant

Why? Jets looked like they were either essential or the only hope.
Making them work was very necessary.

Or another way of putting it the power of the early jets ensured the
aircraft were going to be kept small with the usual effects on
range and armament.

Most of the paper designs are either designe studies

We arent discussing paper studies

In terms of actual types produced I can't see that the Luftwaffe was
any worse than any other air force. In fact they seemed to
rationalize types tom much.

For a start perhaps it would be good to tell us what time period
is under discussion, for example the countries at war tended
to rationalise lines, and require a much higher threshold to start
new ones or shut down old ones.

In terms of prototypes, I rather suspect that if we tally the German
prototypes with the allied ones that they allies would have more.
They just weren't as spectacular. The entire Martin Baker effort MB1-
MB5 produced nothing accept a fine handling aircraft to late to see
the war.

Ah, I get it now, when Junkers has the Ju89, 90, 290 we are
told how it is not so much a waste because the design evolved.

Meantime the MB1 through 5 are apparently not considered
to have evolved, thus are more wasteful. The MB 1 first flew
in 1935, a small two seater monoplane. It was not a fighter.
It employed new patented construction methods, ones that
would be used in the fighters.

The MB 2 was designed to specification F5/34, first flew
in August 1938, the Spitfire and Hurricane were superior.
Seems to have been a very private venture, later purchased
by the RAF, which noted a very impressive attention to detail
for maintenance. This would continue through the other designs.

The MB 3 was designed to specification F18/39, an
evolution of the MB 1, take a look at the layout and
construction details, it was cursed with the sabre and
promptly crashed. The MB 4 never flew, it was to use a
griffon engine in place of the sabre.

The MB 5 used the MB 3 wing plan form but had a
redesigned cooling system from a Spitfire type arrangement
to a P-51 style, requiring a fuselage redesign, the same
construction system was used as the earlier types.

All up there were four MB fighters during the war of which
3 flew and they were a design family.

The MB 2 serial number was P9594. The MB 3 was R2492
and the MB 5 R2496. Not sure if the serials R2493 to
R2495 were issued, the RAF serial numbers book says no.

If this is to be a straight prototype count the allied area needs to
be done more correctly than Martin Baker. Is there going to be
any sort of accounting for the different sizes of the various aircraft
industries?

As for the idea of the Germans producing fewer prototypes this
appears to be a wish rather than anything concrete (it tends to be
considered an advantage when trying to push the later German
designs with their new aerodynamics to have lots of flying types
here it is the other way around since we are talking costs). It is
also true the German concept of ordering multiple prototypes
was better than the single prototype approach.

Messerschmitt, (Mass production includes prototypes and they
usually meant a considerable number of prototypes). These
are designs that resulted in hardware being built.

Bf108, 109, 110, all pre war mass production. All with significant
numbers of prototypes, the Bf109 seems to have had more prototypes
than the Spitfire over the course of their production. Supermarine
kept reworking airframes.

Still pre war

Bf161 (2 built)
Bf162 (3 built),
Bf163 (Fi 156 competitor) 1 flew, another abandoned before completion,
Me209 (first design) 4 built

Wartime

Me/Bv 155 at least 3 prototypes were partly constructed.
Me163 Komet Mass production
Me208 (2 built, others post war)
Me209 (second design) at least 1 low altitude and 1 high altitude
prototypes flew.
Me210 Mass production
Me261 (heavy bomber weight class) 3 built
Me262 Mass production
Me263 (at least one built)
Me264 (heavy bomber) 2 built, possibly a third.
Me309 (4 built)
Me321 (glider) Mass production, some 175 built.
Me323 Mass production.
Me328 some 3 prototypes plus a limited production run.
Me410 Mass production.

P1101, one prototype 80% completed.

I am not claiming this is representative of the typical German firm
nor the following as representative of a typical allied firm but it does
not follow the Germans did less or the same idea. Messerschmitt
was a bigger percentage contributor of German aircraft production
than De Havilland was of British production.

De Havilland
DH98 Mosquito
DH99 Fast bomber design, apparently a better Mosquito, became
the DH101.
DH99 Vampire, renumbered DH100
DH100 Vampire
DH101 Fast heavy Mosquito type bomber design (Sabre engined)
DH102 Fast heavy Mosquito type bomber design (Griffon? engined)
(Somewhere in here is a 4 engined Mosquito type as well)
None of the Mosquito variants were actually built.
DH103 Hornet
DH104 Dove

That is 4 mass production designs and 3 paper projects.

There were plenty of British paper projects and others that resulted
in hardware. The Germans however seem to have spent more
resources per design, as per the numbers of Messerschmitt designs
mentioned above.

<snip>

I won't comment on the Darwining interests groups statement etc but I
can't see the multiple types.
There were two day fighters, the Me 109 and the Fw 190,

Well no, apart from the Me-110 there was the Heinkel 100 , allowed
to get into pre-production before cancellation, the He-112 of
which 100 or so were produced, the me-210 and Me-410
The FW-187 also got to pre-production status and the we have
the Dornier 335.

The He 100 was a private venture, the He 112 was a fly of against the
Me 109 and produced in very small numbers as an insurgence against Me
109 failure. Some rate it much higher than the Me 109.

Again the RAF entered the war with two/three single engined types: the
Hurrican and Spitfire as well as the Defiant. the Luftwaffe had only
the Me 109 and I suppose you could count the Me 110.

Given the number of Defiants you can count the Heinkel fighters
as well, at least in 1940.

What I think we have is the huge publicity of the German jets, test
beds and research projects grabbing the attention away from a large
number of allied odditities.

No, the Germans did expend lots of resources on various designs,
and did things like the Ju287 rather than a scaled down version,
the desperation of 1944 and 1945 ensured almost anything would
be tried.

The fundamental problem by then was the training given to the
pilots and then the fact the allied fighter designs had better
performance for most of 1944.

Just how were the results of any Ju287 trials going to be put into
a production aircraft before 1946? Apart from the Ju287 itself?

the latter
might have benefited from earlier priority in liquid cooled engines.

Well hardly given that the earliest examples used radial air cooled
engines

There was always an intention to produce a liquid cooled Fw 190.

The evidence I have checked is the design was quickly switched
to an air cooled engine, then came the inline trials of 1942 and 1943.

It might have been wiser to also allow the He 112 series to develop;
it seemed to match the Hurricane in speed on only a 700hp Jumo 210
engine and was more maneuverable than the 109.
There was only one 4 engined bomber: the He 177

Apart from the Ju-290, 390 and Ju-488 you mean

I've explained the Ju 89, ju 90, ju 290 development from common roots,
the Ju 390 just added inward wing plugs.

Yes we know the idea is to emphasise the way the designs reused
parts of earlier designs, but fail to mention how much effort was
expended for so few large aircraft and how different they were.

The Ju 488 was made out of Ju 388 parts (cockpit, outer wings) and Ju
288 parts (tail) and a crash program to produce a survivable piston
engined aircraft when the Jumo 222 started looking like its problems
were being solved.

You know the Ju488 was ordered in 1944 and work was done on it.
Even though the industry was having trouble supplying enough fighters.

Instead we have an attempt to claim since it reused some components
the waste of effort is somehow not as bad.

and it would have been
a far better aircraft if the relatively mild modification of
distributing the 4 DB 605 engines evenly over the fueselage was made
yet that was resisted. When upgraded with the larger DB603 engines
and with incorporation of pressurised fueselages already tested on the
earlier He 177 prototypes a bomber with the range, speed and ceiling
characteristics of the B-29 emerged.

We've been through this before. The He-177 had nothing like the
range or bomb capacity of the B-29 and the changes you advocate
are not minor.

The He 277 however did.

The He277 empty weight was about 5 tons more than the He177.
Hence the comment about the changes being non minor.

The He 277 was based around the He 177
(several of the He 177 prototypes were used as test beds for
pressurization)

So far no evidence on He177 pressurisation.

had a much longer wing span and more fuel capacity
and incorporated 4 x DB603 (or Jumo 213) engines that were 44 litre
displacement much larger and more powerful than the 4 x DB605 34L
engines of the He 177.

Basically 5,200 HP in the He177 versus 7,000 HP in the He277
using the DB engines. So a 35% increase.

Just as the Ju 88A4 went from being a 295mph
aircraft to a 388mph with a switch from Jumo 211 to Jumo 213 aircraft
so the He 277 became a 358mph aircraft with a proportionately similar
power boost.

I like this, the Ju88A-4 had 2,400 HP, the more streamlined Ju88S
had around 3,500 HP and nitrous oxide and did 384 mph at
33,000 feet. The HP increase was around 46% and the nitrous
oxide made a big difference as well.

The Ju88G with MW50 and 3,500 HP of Jumo 213 engines did
manage 389 mph. By the way the G was the best part of a ton
lighter than the A-4. The S about 1.5 tons lighter.

The Ju88A-4 production version certainly did not have Jumo engines.

The Max takeoff weight of : 44,500 kg (98,105 lb) is just about bang
on average between that of a B-29 and a B-17.

He277 first flight in late 1943 and yes it came between the B-17
and the B-29 in terms of weight and available power.

The He 177 already used two remote controlled guns (dorsal and
forward ventral) and the He 277 just went all out for 8 since it was
pressurized.

Again still waiting for good evidence the aircraft was pressurised,
given it was based on the He177A-5.

If anything its bomb bay didn't increase in size as it was still based
around the He 177, however when working at maxim range the aircraft
clearly wasn't going to need a big bomb bay.

Amazing when you think about it apparently it was going to be
mainly bombing targets in the order to 1,200 to 1,500 miles from
its bases.

Alternatively it decided to sacrifice bomb load to ensure a long
range, but it has to be made a virtue, apparently by having lots of
targets at long range. Rather than it had a maximum bomb load
limitation problem say bombing Britain from Germany or France.

Keith
The He 111 production was reduced, the Ju 88 and its variants had to
carry most of the bomb load while the Do 217 was produced in small
numbers.

Overall I see the allies producing 3-5 of every type with several
prototypes from competing firms that never achieved production"

The allies werent being squeezed between the Red Army and
Western Allies at the time.

Indeed, but I fail to see the diversity of types that supposedly
sapped German production.

It is not surprising, rose coloured glasses tend to help, all those
evolved designs and so on.

I see two failed bomber programs (He 177 and Ju 288), one of which
could easily have been saved and a failure to keep up with engine
developments between 1943 and 1944.

Go look at the other prototypes mentioned above, there were more
prototypes and designs.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.




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