Re: Air Force wants coal for fuel, but will idea fly?


"Daryl Hunt" <dhunt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Keith Willshaw" <keithnospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Daryl Hunt" <dhunt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Keith Willshaw" <keithnospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Rob Arndt" <teuton263@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
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I don't see why any of this would be a problem- Nazi Germany used coal
gasification from 16 plants to produce 85% of German aviation fuel
during WW2. After WW2, German synthetic fuel was produced in the US
with 2 transported pilot plants operating for a decade. Results were
positive, but back then the German synthetic would cost $16/barrel vs
$3/barrel for Arab crude. So the oil companies dismantled the plants
and filed away their information with Texas A & M. Later, this
information was confiscated by the US Army and locked away, but Texas
A & M copied it on microfilm and it is now being re-examined due to
the ever-increasing cost of a barrel of oil, which now has hit $104/
barrel mark.

Rob


It works when using Coal but not when you use Vegie oil. The
byproduct of Coal or Shale isn't that much different than Crude. When
refined, it becomes able to withstand some extremely cold temps.
Veggie Oil, on the other hand, will thicken up as the temp drops until
it has the consistency of a sticky basketball.


Actually vegetable oil is a FAR BETTER feedstock. Liquid fuels
are hydrocarbons, coal has much less hydrogen than oil from
either fossil sources or a farmers field. The simple reality is
that you dont expect to run car engines on crude oil straight from
the ground so expecting unprocessed vegetable oil to work
that way is silly.

Winterizing biodiesel is quite simple. There are a number of
commercially available products that control waxing but one
of the most promising techniques is the transesterification of
triglycerides
with ethanol or methanol.

This is relatively simple and low cost process used in Europe to
commercially produce biodiesel. Neste Oil in Finland are building
large commercial biodiesel plants for use at home and in Singapore

Yes, and what is their primary Auto Fuel? Diesel.

They are making diesel fuel for auto use.

And not Biodiesel. You can use biofuels to fire a burner for steam or
heat. But in cold climate, it's a poor replacement for Diesel.


The Finns think otherwise, have you been to Finland ?


Finland is not renowned for its warm winters.

Nope, but they ARE renouned for their Diesels. Diesel is the reason
Europe isn't jumping on the Biofuel Auto fuel.

They are however jumping on biodiesel, its cheaper and easier
to produce than ethanol with the feedstocks avaliable. Sugar
cane isnt indigenous to Europe and Sugar Beet production is
already fully used for sugar production

They already get 40+mpg in their cars.

Most do more like 60+ on the highway, even my 16ft long
1.5 ton gasoline engined car does 38+ at cruising speed

One of the things coming out of Mercedes (just to name one) is the joint
venture with Chrysler for an Electric/Diesel combo. Jeep has a concept
car. it runs on the electrics for the first 50 miles or so and then the
Diesel kicks in. 40+ out of a very large Sport Utility with zip makes
Toyota and GM invious. They chose gas and Europe chose diesel.


GM and Toyota sell large numbers of diesels in Europe. These are not
concept cars but current mass production models. While Jeep
have a diesel option the engines are supplied by Mercedes
and at 25mpg it still isnt exactly fugal

Except the first 50 miles is strictly on electrricity. That's coming down
the pike.

I'll believe it when I see it

And the particular diesel that jeep is playing with gets over 40. And
where did you get the 25mpg for a Mercedes.

I mentioned a Jeep with a mercedes supplied diesel. The
road tests are on the web

On one show on PBS they tested a 300D (that's a pretty good sized luxury
car) using both straight diesel and Veggie oil. The Diesel got 33 and the
Veggiemaster got 30. Now, that's still pretty impressive for used and
filtered cooking oil but it would end up costing more than diesel.


Not in Europe where diesel is heavily taxed


The diesel Toyota Hilux Pickup does 34mpg (combined)

Note: Diesel and not Gas. And 34mpg on a straight mini pickup ain't
something to write home about.


On the combined urban rural cyle its not bad for 4wd pickup


The diesel Toyota Auris 2.2 car does 45 mpg can do 0-60 in 6 seconds
and has a top speed of 130 mph

And there is that word again, "Diesel". And 6 seconds is about average
these days for just about any powerplant. Want to bet the electric
Diesels are going to be quicker due to the zero torgue value of the
electric?


You may want to rethink that - zero torque value would mean
zero acceleration. Hybrid's have a lot of extra weight to
hump around , that costs fuel. Six speed transmissions
are doing pretty much as well at lower cost.


Its more frugal brother the 1.4 diesel does 56 mpg has a 0-60
of 11.7 seconds and a top speed of 109 mph

And Chrysler had a car in the late 70s that had that top end and did 0-60
in less than 5. And it was tested at 53 mpg on GAS.

Cite please

They aren't getting better but their PR is doing wonderful things on
paper. I am not just singling out the Orient. It's that way all around
for every company.



Feel free to tell us which production Chrysler pickup
does 56 mpg



If you want real economy in a smaller car the the Citroen C3
1.4 Hdi diesel will give you 63 mpg and still have a top speed
of 118 mph and give you a 0-60 of 9.6 seconds

Yes, these are the cars I have been talking about. Europe is far ahead in
Diesel and Gas is lagging bad all over. The Electric/Diesel is a
natural.


Only if you can produce lightweight batteries and electrical
gear. Right now the signs are that advanced transmissions
are a better option.




You can mix the Veggie based in with the Petrol Based (including Coal
and Shale) and it will be able to withstand a reasonable low temp but
you can't take it too low. For instance, Ethynol powered cars in
Brazil still have a small Gasoline tank for cold starting.


The problem with raw ethanol is its relatively high flash point
which is a problem for spark ignition engines but not compression
ignition engines.

In an all Ethynol/ all Petro (Gas) vehicle (they are sold now and have
been for years by GM) the best performance comes from Ethynol. It gets
over 20% better power per gallon. Now for the bad news. it gets a
little less than 20 mpg worse fuel mileage. It works out that it's
barely marginally better than Gas.


Actually its far WORSE . The simple reality is that ethanol produces
30 MJ per kg, gasoline produces 47 MJ per kg and
diesel has 45 MJ per kg

I was comparing it to gas. Yes Diesel wins especially when hybrided up
with an Electric where the Electric is used independent of the diesel.
That first 50 miles is much quicker and costs in the neighborhood of 15
cents per mile.


Only if you can provide long life lightweight batteries and
electricity thats not produced from fossil fuels. Otherwise
you simply switch the use of oil/coal from the auto with
an efficiency of more than 40% to a power plant that
is lucky to manage 35%. Net result - more fuels is used


Virgin Airlines made the announcement that they were going to run
Biofuels. Yes, it's a blend much like the gasoline we buy from the
pumps in that it's probably no more than 10% blend of Biofuel laced with
the Jet Fuel.

Indeed but adopting that for all fuels would reduce US reliance
on imported oil by 10%

No it won't . During the Reagan and back years, the way the US kept the
price of oil even doing a 40% import rate was to tap into the Strategic
Reserves. They ceased doing that sometime during the Reagan years and
have never done it again.

Thats because the reserve is tint compared to US usage

We are still importing less than 50% of our oil.

More like 70%

And between Canada and the US, there is
enough oil reserves to bankrupt Russia and the Middle East.

Thats just wishful thinking

But it's kept as reserves either by capping or not drilling.

Utter nonsense, the following figures are from 2005
are from US Dept of Energy

Country Oil Reserves(billion barrels)
USA 29.2
Canada 16.5
Mexico 13.7
Iran 137
Iraq 115
Kuwait 101
Saudi Arabia 264

Keith


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