Re: Air Force wants coal for fuel, but will idea fly?

Daryl Hunt wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" <keithnospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:ft3aks$dei$1$8300dec7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Daryl Hunt" <dhunt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:47f51753$0$25979$88260bb3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Keith Willshaw" <keithnospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:ft36on$97j$1$8300dec7@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Daryl Hunt" <dhunt@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:47f4ffe6$0$18851$88260bb3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Rob Arndt" <teuton263@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:586c5e0a-51e6-40d4-a52e-0c0804895952@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I don't see why any of this would be a problem- Nazi Germany used coal
gasification from 16 plants to produce 85% of German aviation fuel
during WW2. After WW2, German synthetic fuel was produced in the US
with 2 transported pilot plants operating for a decade. Results were
positive, but back then the German synthetic would cost $16/barrel vs
$3/barrel for Arab crude. So the oil companies dismantled the plants
and filed away their information with Texas A & M. Later, this
information was confiscated by the US Army and locked away, but Texas
A & M copied it on microfilm and it is now being re-examined due to
the ever-increasing cost of a barrel of oil, which now has hit $104/
barrel mark.

Rob

It works when using Coal but not when you use Vegie oil. The byproduct of Coal or Shale isn't that much different than Crude. When refined, it becomes able to withstand some extremely cold temps. Veggie Oil, on the other hand, will thicken up as the temp drops until it has the consistency of a sticky basketball.

Actually vegetable oil is a FAR BETTER feedstock. Liquid fuels
are hydrocarbons, coal has much less hydrogen than oil from
either fossil sources or a farmers field. The simple reality is
that you dont expect to run car engines on crude oil straight from
the ground so expecting unprocessed vegetable oil to work
that way is silly.

Winterizing biodiesel is quite simple. There are a number of
commercially available products that control waxing but one
of the most promising techniques is the transesterification of triglycerides
with ethanol or methanol.

This is relatively simple and low cost process used in Europe to
commercially produce biodiesel. Neste Oil in Finland are building
large commercial biodiesel plants for use at home and in Singapore
Yes, and what is their primary Auto Fuel? Diesel.
They are making diesel fuel for auto use.

And not Biodiesel. You can use biofuels to fire a burner for steam or heat. But in cold climate, it's a poor replacement for Diesel.

The Finns think otherwise, have you been to Finland ?

Finland is not renowned for its warm winters.
Nope, but they ARE renouned for their Diesels. Diesel is the reason Europe isn't jumping on the Biofuel Auto fuel.
They are however jumping on biodiesel, its cheaper and easier
to produce than ethanol with the feedstocks avaliable. Sugar
cane isnt indigenous to Europe and Sugar Beet production is
already fully used for sugar production

They already get 40+mpg in their cars.
Most do more like 60+ on the highway, even my 16ft long
1.5 ton gasoline engined car does 38+ at cruising speed

One of the things coming out of Mercedes (just to name one) is the joint venture with Chrysler for an Electric/Diesel combo. Jeep has a concept car. it runs on the electrics for the first 50 miles or so and then the Diesel kicks in. 40+ out of a very large Sport Utility with zip makes Toyota and GM invious. They chose gas and Europe chose diesel.

GM and Toyota sell large numbers of diesels in Europe. These are not
concept cars but current mass production models. While Jeep
have a diesel option the engines are supplied by Mercedes
and at 25mpg it still isnt exactly fugal

Except the first 50 miles is strictly on electrricity. That's coming down the pike. And the particular diesel that jeep is playing with gets over 40. And where did you get the 25mpg for a Mercedes. On one show on PBS they tested a 300D (that's a pretty good sized luxury car) using both straight diesel and Veggie oil. The Diesel got 33 and the Veggiemaster got 30. Now, that's still pretty impressive for used and filtered cooking oil but it would end up costing more than diesel.

The diesel Toyota Hilux Pickup does 34mpg (combined)

Note: Diesel and not Gas. And 34mpg on a straight mini pickup ain't something to write home about.

The diesel Toyota Auris 2.2 car does 45 mpg can do 0-60 in 6 seconds
and has a top speed of 130 mph

And there is that word again, "Diesel". And 6 seconds is about average these days for just about any powerplant. Want to bet the electric Diesels are going to be quicker due to the zero torgue value of the electric?

Its more frugal brother the 1.4 diesel does 56 mpg has a 0-60
of 11.7 seconds and a top speed of 109 mph

And Chrysler had a car in the late 70s that had that top end and did 0-60 in less than 5. And it was tested at 53 mpg on GAS. They aren't getting better but their PR is doing wonderful things on paper. I am not just singling out the Orient. It's that way all around for every company.


If you want real economy in a smaller car the the Citroen C3
1.4 Hdi diesel will give you 63 mpg and still have a top speed
of 118 mph and give you a 0-60 of 9.6 seconds

Yes, these are the cars I have been talking about. Europe is far ahead in Diesel and Gas is lagging bad all over. The Electric/Diesel is a natural.


You can mix the Veggie based in with the Petrol Based (including Coal and Shale) and it will be able to withstand a reasonable low temp but you can't take it too low. For instance, Ethynol powered cars in Brazil still have a small Gasoline tank for cold starting.

The problem with raw ethanol is its relatively high flash point
which is a problem for spark ignition engines but not compression
ignition engines.
In an all Ethynol/ all Petro (Gas) vehicle (they are sold now and have been for years by GM) the best performance comes from Ethynol. It gets over 20% better power per gallon. Now for the bad news. it gets a little less than 20 mpg worse fuel mileage. It works out that it's barely marginally better than Gas.

Actually its far WORSE . The simple reality is that ethanol produces
30 MJ per kg, gasoline produces 47 MJ per kg and
diesel has 45 MJ per kg

I was comparing it to gas. Yes Diesel wins especially when hybrided up with an Electric where the Electric is used independent of the diesel. That first 50 miles is much quicker and costs in the neighborhood of 15 cents per mile.

Virgin Airlines made the announcement that they were going to run Biofuels. Yes, it's a blend much like the gasoline we buy from the pumps in that it's probably no more than 10% blend of Biofuel laced with the Jet Fuel.
Indeed but adopting that for all fuels would reduce US reliance
on imported oil by 10%

No it won't . During the Reagan and back years, the way the US kept the price of oil even doing a 40% import rate was to tap into the Strategic Reserves. They ceased doing that sometime during the Reagan years and have never done it again. We are still importing less than 50% of our oil. And between Canada and the US, there is enough oil reserves to bankrupt Russia and the Middle East. But it's kept as reserves either by capping or not drilling. And when you couple the Shale that can be used, the Coal that can be used and some mighty black and sticky sand that Canada has, North America is doing just fine and will be the last to run out of oil. It's not to the longterm benefit of the US and Canada to import less.




Wasn't there a shale oil plant built under the Carter administration?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
.

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