Re: SAMs? what SAMs
- From: Eunometic <eunometic@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 05:35:06 -0700
On Oct 2, 2:47 pm, Rob Arndt <teuton...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 1, 7:49 pm, Ian B MacLure <i...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
It seems that Israeli airstrike on Syria had some interesting effects
not least on Russian military sales. The Israelis got through Syria's
air defence systems without a scratch.
The Iranians have the same sorts of systems and they are very
nervous. Seems they figure the Syrian episode was a dry run for
the lowering of the boom on their stank collective ass.
Sunday, September 09, 2007
IAF jammed Russian Pantsyr-S1 missiles
So, why would the Israelis disclose the vulnerability of the Syrian
new system. This gives the Syrians and Russian manufacturers a chance
to modify or upgrade their system.
There is a strong possibillity that the system was fully compromised.
Adolf Tolkachev the chief designer of Phazotron disclosed the Soviet
Unions radar secrets to the CIA and therefore Israel though he was
executed for this. The former soveit buros are probably riddled with
informants purchased with the usual; money, honey pot trap or
political motivations (support of israel etc).
During the Gulf wars Iraqi owned Roland SAM system was not jammed: the
allied solution was to fly out of its launch zone. The Pantsyr uses a
more or less updated version of the same concept. Roland has been
updated since then.
A significantly more advanced technology; eg the use of gallium
nitride transistors could be the source of Israeli success in jamming
or it could be that the Pantsyr-S1 was a dumbed down export version or
that the CISS had simply failed to
emphasis sufficient ECCM development which must be continuously
reinforced and updated with training, development and system mods and
Modern western missiles are guided by inertial guidance systems and
then home by an active homing radar, possibly with home on jam, or
with an imaging infrared system. In other words the guidance system
uses infrared vision but homes not onto the hotest object but on the
aircraft it has been locked on to using machine vision algorithms.
The latest systems eg the Python IV AAM homes in on the
DEBKA is reporting that the Israeli plane(s) that managed to avoid
Syrian anti-aircraft fire the other night did so by jamming Syria's
brand new Russian Pantsyr-S1 surface to air missiles. If this is
correct, it means that Israel can attack Syria and Iran (which has the
same missiles) without needing to worry about having its planes shot
DEBKAfile's military experts conclude from the way Damascus described
the episode Wednesday, Sept. 6, that the Pantsyr-S1E missiles,
purchased from Russia to repel air assailants, failed to down the
Israeli jets accused of penetrating northern Syrian airspace from the
Mediterranean the night before.
The new Pantsyr missiles therefore leave Syrian and Iranian airspace
vulnerable to hostile intrusion.
The Israeli plane or planes were described by a Syrian military
spokesman as "forced to leave by Syrian air defense fire after
dropping ammunition over deserted areas without causing casualties."
He warned "the Israeli enemy against repeating its aggressive action"
and said his government reserved the right to respond in an
Western intelligence circles stress that information on Russian
missile consignments to Syria or Iran is vital to any US calculation
of whether to attack Iran over its nuclear program. They assume that
the "absolute jamming immunity" which the Russian manufactures
promised for the improved Pantsyr missiles was immobilized by superior
electronic capabilities exercised by the jets before they were "forced
Syria took delivery in mid-August of 10 batteries of sophisticated
Russian Pantsyr-S1E Air Defense Missile fire control systems with
advanced radar, those sources report. They have just been installed in
Understanding that the Pantsyr-S1E had failed in its mission to bring
down trespassing aircraft, Moscow hastened Thursday, Sept 6, to
officially deny selling these systems to Syria or Iran and called on
Israel to respect international law. This was diplomatic-speak for a
warning against attacking the Russian-made missiles batteries stations
where Russian instructors are working alongside Syrian teams.
Western intelligence circles maintain that it is vital for the US and
Israel to establish the location and gauge the effectiveness of
Pantsyr-S1E air defenses in Syrian and Iranian hands, as well as
discovering how many each received.
And maybe that's why the plane(s) were there in the first place: to
draw fire and gauge the effectiveness of the Russian-made missiles?
That's what DEBKA seems to think:
The purported Israeli air force flights over the Pantsyr-S1E site
established that the new Russian missiles, activated for the first
time in the Middle East, are effective and dangerous but can be
disarmed. Western military sources attribute to those Israeli or other
air force planes superior electronics for jamming the Russian missile
systems, but stress nonetheless that they were extremely lucky to get
away unharmed, or at worst, with damage minor enough for a safe return
The courage, daring and operational skills of the air crews must have
been exceptional. They would have needed to spend enough time in
hostile Syrian air space to execute several passes at varying
altitudes under fire in order to test the Pantsyr-S1E responses. Their
success demonstrated to Damascus and Tehran that their expensive new
Russian anti-air system leaves them vulnerable.
The Pantsyr S1 short-range air defense system is designed to provide
point defense of key military and industrial facilities and air
defense support for military units during air and ground operations.
The integrated missile and gun armament creates an uninterrupted
engagement zone of 18 to 20 km in range and of up to 10 km in
altitude. Immunity to jamming is promised via a common multimode and
multi-spectral radar and optical control system. The combined missile
and artillery capability makes the Russian system the most advanced
air defense system in the world. Syria and Iran believe it provides
the best possible protection against American or Israeli air and
missile attack. Stationed in al Hamma, at the meeting point of the
Syrian-Jordanian and Israeli borders, the missile's detection range of
30 km takes in all of Israel's northern air force bases.
Al Hamma is called Hamat Gader on the Israeli side and is at the
southwestern tip of the Golan Heights.
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