Re: Germany, Japan, and the PTO-did the Germans know how things were going?

"Eunometic" <eunometic@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1185799948.801358.95220@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
German-Japanese co-operation was nowhere as extensive as US British
cooperation which can be explained in part by the difficulty of the
journey (via u-boat) or possibly via neutrals and the lack of a pre-
existing or natural cultural relationship. (the japanese were on the
allied side in ww1)

See also mutually assured racism, both governments were big on
their natural superiority over everyone else.

And it was quite easy to travel from Germany to Japan and back
again until June 1941 via the USSR and until later in that year a
more difficult journey was via the Italian air line flights to Brazil
then by sea to Japan.

While the US was escorting British Merchant
shipping and repeatedly attacking u-boats for almost a year in advance
of the declaration of war the Japanese did not forwarn the Germans of
their planed attack.

Try the US declared a neutrality zone at the start of the war and
gradually extended that further east.
Try the US became involved in escorting convoys after the US
occupation of Iceland, in July 1941. Try attacking U-boats from
September 1941.

The usual Eunometic flexible definition of time is being employed.

Try the Germans did not warn the Japanese about Barbarossa.
Try the Japanese did warn the Germans things were becoming
"very dangerous" in the Pacific which was diplomatic speak for
war was coming. Fighting could "break out at any moment".

Airflights over the pole from Germany to Japan
were technically possible (by Junkers Ju 290) but politically
officially over ruled by the Japanese who were not at war with the
Russians and did not wish to aggravate them.

Try the Italians rather than the Germans and the fact the costs
of such flights were not worth the effort. Not to mention the
problems of over pole flights.

There are rumours of Ju
290 transfered to civilian markings and used for this purpose however
are something you may be interested in,

Eunometic is reporting fiction.

Having said that there was a flow of technology mainly from the
Germans to the Japanese who brought German tanks, liquid cooled
engines (hoping to create high altitude fighters) etc

The liquid cooled engine was more about covering a gap in
Japanese engine technology, not for altitude work, that meant
supercharging.

and in the final
phases Germany shipped examples of parts of its jet and rocket
engines, Me 163 rocket fighters, proximity fuses, guidence systems,
radar calibrators etc.

The point is of course how many made it and whether there were
any proximity fuses involved. You see the shipments of these
items was a 1945 affair. Rather late.

One of the final u-boats was the
controversial U-234, another was surrendered to the Canadians but
grabbed by the US while carrying uranium as well as two Japaneses
officers who suicided rhather than surrendering (some of the Germans
on board are still missing, perhaps killed in US interrogation).

Note uboat.net says U-234 surrendered at Portsmouth New Hampshire
on 16 May 1945.

It was intercepted by the USS Sutton on 14 May.

And who exactly claims there are missing crew members from U-234?
And what sort of evidence exists to claim the US killed them?

U-864 was sunk when enigma decrypts disclosed her course and she was
ambushed.

By an RN submarine.

The Japanese in fact were able to get their jet engine going when they
viewed pictures of the inards of a BMW003. (this indicates the power
of belief)

Try the Japanese decided the Ne-10 engine was not gong to produce
enough power and so decided to use the BMW003 as the basis for the
Ne-20 design. They had photographs and a cut away drawing for guides.

One irony was that the Japanese under SHIGERU NAKAJIMA had developed
in 1939 a multicavity magnetron for microwave radar one year ahead of
Randall and Boot in england.
See page 5/6 here:
http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Nakajima212.pdf

The Japanese failed to appreciate the value of their discovery and
lacksadiscally installed it on a ship only in 1942.

Going to mention the Soviet scientists who appear to have discovered
the cavity magnetron even earlier and also published their results?

Or how small the Japanese electronic industry was, even Zeros had
to fly without voice radios in 1941/42.

In 1940 German industry was told to shutdown or suspend development
programs that would not produce a field able weapons within 6 months
(various times are given) and so the magnetron development program was
mostly shutdown. (those who think this was a unique act of stupidity
should note that the same pressures were applied in Britain and almost
succeeded).

Try the German ban was nowhere as complete as being claimed and
the British bans applied in the second half of 1940, thanks to the
biggest national crisis in centuries. It was lifted by the end of the
year. In effect for the Battle of Britain the British tried to concentrate
on what they could produce then, not in 1941.

In December 1942 they (under General Martini) attempted
to reopen in order to dominate the high frequency field but this was
rejected. In Feb 1943 a magnetron was recovered from a H2S radar in a
Stirling bomber. Although they were able to get a copy going within
weeks a trickle of productions sets didn't start till 18 months
latter.

For whatever reason this device, which could have changed the course
of the war for both the Germans and Japanese wasn't appreciated or
shared. It probably constitutes the biggest failure after the failure
to secure their encryption systems that both nations failed in.

I like the idea possessing centimetric radar sets could have changed
the war for the axis.

Somehow I do not see the IJN able to match the USN in combat
power, which means Japan is doomed. Somehow I do not see
the German air defences becoming that much better, and the radars
helping to stop the Red Army or Overlord.

Also having the design was one thing manufacturing it in quantity
was something else. A real problem for the Japanese and even
for the Germans.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.


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