Re: The French Harrier?

On Mar 26, 11:29?pm, "guy" <guyswetten...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 26 Mar, 21:55, "Rob Arndt" <teuton...@xxxxxxx> wrote:





On Mar 26, 12:46?pm, NoHoverstop <wumpus.no.s...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Rob Arndt wrote:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic...

The Breguet BR 1100 Apterion

This is the first project with the Bristol BE 53 lift-thrust unit
(Michel Wilbault licence). It was to be a ground attack aircraft. I
think it was the first project with the BE 53 (1957).

Breguet studied another "Apterion", but the Arm? de l'Air selected
the Dassault Mirage V instead.

Does anyone information on the first British BE 53 project?

rOB

Interesting that it's supposed to have more than 21,000lbs of thrust
given that as far as I know the very first real BE 53 to actually run
(actually BE 53/3 or "Pegasus 2") produced around 11,000lbs. There is a
whiff of hot air about this one, which if it's real then can only
suggest what became known as Plenum Chamber Burning (PCB - certainly a
documented idea in connection with VSTOL by 1960, so perhaps earlier) is
involved in the concept. The "hot jets" tag and the fact that the
forward nozzles are on the end of long ducts which are absent from other
early concepts based around the BE 53 also hint at this.

The Hawker company were producing sketches for the P1127 project with
the (at the time) three-nozzle BE 53 by March 1957. This was in response
to Bristol's BE 53 brochure which outlined the engine concept. This was
evolved from the BE 48 which itself was Bristol's attempt to make
something practical out of Michel Wibault's "Gyroptere" concept which
used a Bristol BE 25 "Orion" gas turbine powerplane. Wibault presented
his concept in early 1956. The US-funded Mutual Weapons Development
Program (their money, their spelling!) evaluated the scheme and set-up a
meeting in July 1956 between Wibault and Sir Stanley Hooker of Bristol
to see if if could be progressed. Bristol had their alternative idea
(Designated BS 48, using the Orion but with a much simpler fan/nozzle
arrangement) penned by August 1956. Design iteration followed and
replaced the Orion (and reduction gearbox) with an Orpheus (and
additional LP turbine plus shaft) to produce the first BE 53 which was
what was outlined in the brochure distributed interested parties.
Presumably from 1957, anyone with a bit of spare time and access to the
brochure would have had a go at designing something to go around this
new engine concept. By June 1957, at the request of the Hawker company,
the BE 53's rear nozzle had been split into two vectoring nozzles to
give the now familiar "four poster" configuration and the P1127 trundled
through development to first fly in October 1960.

Your picture is dated July 22nd 195-something, perhaps 1957 (it couldn't
be any earlier as outlined above), in which case it would not seem to be
the "first project with the BE 53". However Michel Wibault did kick the
whole thing off with the Gyroptere, so it's very interesting to see his
follow-on efforts.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

IIRC, the Breguet 1100 was the second TAON .

VTOL Breguets were the 1110 series.
This series ran from 1110 to 1116, exploring a wide range of concepts
(including some Harrier "clones") with subsonic or supersonic
variants.

The basic idea for the Harrier came from Michel Wibault in 1956. His
idea was to use a turboprop to drive four ducted propellers. Those
propellers tilted in the same way as the Harrier nozzles.

As there was no interest in France, the idea went to Hawker which
replaced the Orion turboprop and propellers by a Pegasus and 4 nozzles
(two for cold air, two for hot gases, on the rear).

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Have a look at the Dassault Balzac Rob - VTOL Mirage

Test a/c for the RB108 was the Short SC1
(also have a look at the 'flying bestead' :-)

There was also a German twin RR Pegasus feederliner around 1966. It
was VTOL to allow use in cities but I wonder how they thought they
would get away with the noise!

guy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Guy,

After WW2 and the 10 year ban on German aviation (1945-1955) many
amazing things happened:

- several unrelated German engineers immediately applied for disc a/c
patents, mostly in the US
- the remaining a/c companies and merged companies for the most part
all promoted VTOL designs for fighters, interceptors, transports, and
airliners... plus a wide-range of helicopters!
- Lippisch promoted aerodynes, delta bombers for Convair, and WIG-
aircraft
- Junkers designed spacecraft
- Raimar Horten and Kurt Tank promoted radical delta and flying wings
to Argentina, Spain, India, and others

Imagine if all of these advanced concepts were actually built in their
proper timeframes. Aviation would be a lot more interesting for sure.

Rob

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The French Harrier?
    ... (Michel Wilbault licence). ... forward nozzles are on the end of long ducts which are absent from other ... used a Bristol BE 25 "Orion" gas turbine powerplane. ... The basic idea for the Harrier came from Michel Wibault in 1956. ...
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  • Re: The French Harrier?
    ... (Michel Wilbault licence). ... think it was the first project with the BE 53. ... forward nozzles are on the end of long ducts which are absent from other ... The basic idea for the Harrier came from Michel Wibault in 1956. ...
    (rec.aviation.military)
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