Re: Caravan: Both front calipers seized????

On 2010-12-21, jim beam <me@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 12/20/2010 08:35 PM, Brent wrote:
On 2010-12-21, jim beam<me@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 12/20/2010 06:17 AM, Brent wrote:
On 2010-12-20, jim beam<me@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

if it does, the hose will burst from inside to outside, not outside to
inside. the latter is the only way you could possibly get a "flap".
and that can't happen from clamping since the pressure from the two
opposing walls prevents both contacting parts from doing so.

You are neglecting slow degrading of the interior surface of the hose or
other parts of the system leading to debris or fractures that could
block or restrict flow.

what "flow"?

The (effectively) incompressible fluid that moves along the brake lines
and hoses into the caliper forcing the pads against the rotor and then
(some of it returns) back when the pedal is released. Really, Why do I
have to explain this?

because you don't seem to understand that migration of the order of
millimeters is not, by any reasonable definition, "flow". and it's
certainly not "flow" as far as being able to fold a flap against itself
inside the bore of a tube being held shut by external pressure. or
whatever the fantasy guesswork mechanism is you're speculating about.

You mean milliliters and it is a flow. I am not speculating about
anything of a flap holding itself anywhere. I stated you neglected the
inside surfaces deteriorating. You believe they remain pristine. There
is no good basis for this assumption.

and fractures allow material outwards, not inwards - just
like a burst tire allows air outwards, not inwards. debris? from what?
this is not an open system. and there's no "could" - that's just a
"ghost in the machine" argument.

My god. you act like someone who was good at school and that's it. Like
someone who has read about stuff but has no knack or actual experience.
The inconsistency of your own posts... first you blather on about
contamination and the reaction of rubber to it and now you're acting
like it's impossible for foreign materials to get into the system....

talk of blather - and talk of total materials ignorance.

Stop projecting.

there is nothing "entering" the system.

According to your seal swelling theory there must be. But I don't expect
people like you to be logical and think, you just parrot out what you
read without any thinking. It leads to good grades in school, but in the
practical world results in the sort of opposing arguments you are making
in this thread. On one hand you argue that the master cylinder seals
swell from contamination and then shrink when the contamination is
removed, but here you argue the system is sealed and free of
contamination of any sort, even particles from the inside surfaces of
the system components. It's pretty clear you lack the ability to think
and simply parrot.

any discoloration is either assembly
lubricant, moisture absorption, or rubber "powder" from wear. NONE of
which can "tear" the innards of a thick walled rubber tube and create a
"flap".

Who said anything about discoloration? Materials break down. Materials
fracture from the stresses of operation. A brake hose sees cycles of
pressure, bending, and when the caliper is off the car can see twisting
or stretching. (torsion and tension) You neglect that on the inside
surface. You act as if it is never stressed, does not age, and would
some how magically stay perfectly new for forever.

not to mention what I actually wrote which was materials of the system
breaking down and in that process debris being produced. Here's a clue,
parts decay. They decay from the outside and the inside.

How do you think this:
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/images/brakes/dangerous_bulge_brake_hose.jpg
Happens? (http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/109)

the fibers fatigue and break. see above comment on materials ignorance.

So internal damage occurs. That's the point. The fibers are
completely sealed between the inner and outer layers, yet they fail.
Guess what can happen to your inner wall? It's not made of some
magical material. Stop projecting your ignorance on me.

and did you see any "flaps" in here?
http://www.agcoauto.com/content/images/brakes/inside_brake_hose.jpg

I'm not arguing flaps. I'm pointing out your ignorance and
inconsistency.

That's the hose failing from the inside out. Not all that material
that's slowly deteriorated from the inside goes the direction of the
bulge.

no dude, material always moves with the pressure differential.
fundamental fact.

I argued that, "dude". I explained it to you. The pressure doesn't only
act out towards the walls of the system it is also still applied in the
direction of the tube.

Some of it will move in the direction of the hose's internal
passage, and will do so long before the hose is structurally weakened to
the point to start a bulge.

fundamental misunderstanding and uninformed speculation.

Projection due to lack of any ability to formulate a reply.

There's also no rule that it actually has to
break free either, it could flap.

bullshit.

Once again, declaration from bookboy. Go back to school where parroting
what you read in a book counts for something.

If there is still wall on the outside
there is no reason to suspect that it will only get pressed against said
wall but can be pushed in direction the fluid is pushed, either on the
way to the caliper or on the return.

fundamental misconception and uninformed guesswork. see above.

Once again, projection due to a lack of ability to think. Where can I
buy this magical material you believe is on the inside of braking
systems that never breaks down, never fatigues, has no issue with
temperature cycles, age, etc and so on? Please. Tell me where this stuff
is... and since it is passenger cars it's probably cheap too!

Then there is rust and other debris that can come from deterioration of
the internal surfaces of the system.

doubtless deposited by the extensive "flow" you're guessing happens...

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydraulic+flow

.

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