Re: Mad Max is at it again

Jago wrote:
"Graham Hodgson" <ttgmh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:496k1gFmoimgU2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Jago wrote:
"Graham Hodgson" <ttgmh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:495c7mFn291tU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Jago wrote:
"Graham Hodgson" <ttgmh@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:4947trFmru7aU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Not_So_Prefect_Being wrote:
On Mon, 27 Mar 2006 22:37:13 +0100, Graham Hodgson <ttgmh@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Jago wrote:
"Paul Harman" <chatterbox@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:48q369Flc4i0U3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Jago" <jago@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:4425de51$1_1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Arguably the only team close to privateer status left, ironically enough, is Ferrari.
There's a Mr Williams over here who wishes to raise an objection.

Paul

Ferrari builds their own chassis and engines. Williams doesn't. Williams is in partnership, as opposed to just engine supplier, with Cosworth, assisted by Ford, that designs and builds more than just engines for Williams. Drive train, electronics, etc. A Williams-Cosworth effort. Ferrari's F1 campaign, while majority owned by FIAT, is Ferrari designed and built.
A few points:
* I thought Williams designed their own gearbox this year.
Yes, using a few Cosworth facilities to test it. Continous torque or
something. I posted about it before the season started but no-one
seemed interested.
It's about design not supply?

* Don't Ferrari use MM electronics?
It's about design not supply.
Yeah, MM design their electronics.

* AFAIK Ford have no involvement with Cosworth or Williams
No more. In the past it was money.
Indeed. But the current F1 engine is not backed by Ford money, as was suggested by Jago .

--
Graham

Make a little birdhouse in your soul...

I didn't specifically say that Cosworth was backed by Ford. Cosworth isn't any longer. I said assisted in the sense that Ford was the financier of Cosworth for decades and half the reason for Cosworth existing today. IOW, Cosworth wouldn't be around without the assistance of previous Ford financing.
And would Ferrari be around without FIAT financing?

--
Graham

Make a little birdhouse in your soul...

I really don't know. Ferrari was founded and thrived long before FIAT first bought in. If I recollect correctly, Ferrari went through a bad period from the mid-1950s to the mid- to late-1960s, with internal company squabbles and drop in buyer demand for their road cars. Cosworth, OTOH, was Ford right from the beginning, and backed by Ford, until just recently. The first Cosworth engine was a modified Ford engine for a junior formulae. The facts are that the revenues from Ferrari to FIAT are a pittance of FIAT's total annual earnings, and Ferrari is totally independently run from FIAT. As to whether FIAT saved Ferrari, I have no idea. Other than, I doubt they did, but I don't have the financial info to back this up.
I thought Cosworth was set up separately from Ford by Mike and Keith?


Disclaimer: I'm not a Cosworth historian. So my comments shouldn't be taken as definitive. This goes for Ferrari too.

Cosworth was founded and owned by Costin and Duckworth at the onset, totally independent of Ford. However, Costin's and Duckworth's first ever racing engine was a Ford engine. They took a Ford engine and tinkered with it and made it more powerful. Ford, therefore, with all the Ford investment that went into producing that one engine that Cosworth modified, was there in association with Cosworth right from the beginning. Ford wouldn't fulltime bankroll Cosworth until Colin Chapman talked them into doing so in the mid-1960s. But every engine that Cosworth modified or built from scratch until the Ford financing era began was a Ford or derived from a Ford. IOW, Cosworth didn't invent and build an engine from scratch and pure brainstorming. They took an existing design and made it better.

And what do they do now?

If FIAT didn't help Ferrari why did Ferrari sell up to them?

FIAT did help Ferrari, as did Alfa Romeo and Pirelli. In simplest terms, it costs money to go fast. Without money, going fast is only a dream. There are many great historical books that cover why FIAT bought into Ferrari. They are far more indepth and knowledgable than anything I can possibly offer.

But the point is they've been supported by manufacturers in the past.

The overall point is that Williams are a privateer and source their engines from a supplier. Way back up the top you seemed intent on suggesting that because Ford had some involvement with Cosworth in the past that this meant Williams weren't privateers whereas Ferrari were, because they do everything themselves.

--
Graham

Make a little birdhouse in your soul...
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Mad Max is at it again
    ... Ferrari builds their own chassis and engines. ... Williams doesn't. ... Williams is in partnership, as opposed to just engine supplier, ... using a few Cosworth facilities to test it. ...
    (rec.autos.sport.f1)
  • Re: Mad Max is at it again
    ... Ferrari builds their own chassis and engines. ... Williams is in partnership, as opposed to just engine supplier, ... using a few Cosworth facilities to test it. ... But the current F1 engine is not backed by Ford money, ...
    (rec.autos.sport.f1)
  • Re: Mad Max is at it again
    ... Ferrari builds their own chassis and engines. ... Williams is in partnership, as opposed to just engine supplier, ... using a few Cosworth facilities to test it. ... But the current F1 engine is not backed by Ford money, ...
    (rec.autos.sport.f1)
  • Re: Mad Max is at it again
    ... There's a Mr Williams over here who wishes to raise an objection. ... Ferrari builds their own chassis and engines. ... using a few Cosworth facilities to test it. ... But the current F1 engine is not backed by Ford money, ...
    (rec.autos.sport.f1)
  • Re: Ford suing Ferrari over F150 name
    ... buy Ferrari. ... time anyone went into deep failure analysis for the engine. ... IIRC Ford ...
    (rec.autos.sport.f1)