Re: Fuel economy myths

"Ted Mittelstaedt" <tedm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in news:newscache
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"Joe" <dinner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Bill Putney <bptn@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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Joe wrote:

who <i@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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In article <Xns99BFD38CBF16Fnospamforme@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Joe <dinner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:


However, for things to _really_ change, somebody's got to come up
with batteries that can be fully recharged in a matter of minutes
and can go 200 miles on a single charge. The motors for hi-power
all-electric cars are here now - all that's needed is better
battery
technology.

The electricity to charge those batteries is going to come from
.....?


Ah, that's a different topic. That question can be asked about
anything that uses some kind of power.

I think he's getting at how fast you can get the required energy
transferred into the battery (without overloading your supply
system
and without destroying your battery with waste heat).

It can go both ways, but I took it as questioning the source of power
for recharging. It's a valid question, but it certainly covers a
wider
topic than only vehicles.

You can't get infinite power in zero seconds from a practical
source.
Look at Ted's post with quantification of the problem (i.e., 12,000
watts for 10 minutes). Actually Ted's calculations are optimistic.
Whatever the inefficiencies of the charging process ('x' watts of
heat
generated in the supply lines and in the battery for every 'y'
watts
of useable charge) would only increase the watts required from the
source.
IOW - if the charging process is 70% efficient, that 12,000 watts
sustained pull becomes over 17,000 watts.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Granted. But the average American doesn't give two dumps about any
of
that. He/she simply wants to pull in to a refueling station, spend
no
more than 10 minutes there, then take off for another 300 miles and
do
it again when the needle is hovering right above "E".

People's expectations regarding the ultra-convenience of refueling
today's internal combustion engines will be nearly impossible to
change.

No, not at all. If people are not given an ultra-convenient refueling
mechanism they will very quickly adapt. You need to think outside of
the box here. The problem with fueling passenger cars in the future
once
sources of gasoline run out isn't going to be solved with thinking
inside of the box.

Check the average vehicle consumer's pulse. He/she doesn't think
outside the box, and changing that mentality that's been ingrained for
almost a hundred years will not happen easily.

In all liklihood since we have a lot of coal reserves, once oil gets
too expensive someone will come up with some horrendously
energy-expensive method of converting coal into some kind of
liquid fuel - be it gasoline or some other flammable liquid or
flammable pressurized gas. That will probably stave off the
inevitable for another 50 years.

We probably have enough fossil fuel to continue making status quo
vehicles for another 50 years.

But ultimately your going to
see most vehicles running on electricity. Economically, it
makes no sense to obtain electricity from wind or solar then
convert it into yet another form of energy, like pressurized
hydrogen or some such, and burn that in a fuel cell to produce
electricity again to power electric motors when you can just
charge batteries with it. So pricing on liquid-fueled vehicles
will always be higher than just running them off the power
grid.

This is all assuming that the cost to produce said vehicles has come
down to roughly the same cost as fossil-fueled vehicles. Most
automotive consumers have a valid concern over the TCO.

That price won't be paid unless the vehicle is a truck
or something that requires so much energy that battery power
wouldn't work.

Ted

I believe ultimately it will all come down to a balance between
economics and convenience. The average automotive consumer will most
likely be shopping on a budget, but with the added factor of convenience
in mind. People are doing that now - while living paycheck to paycheck,
some will still purchase dinner 4 or 5 nights a week (as opposed to
making it at home) because it allows them more time for their other
activities, albeit at a price. I don't believe automotive consumers are
any different. They simply won't give up features they've gotten used
to, like refueling in a matter of minutes.
.

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